ESSENTIAL ELEMENTS OF SAVING FAITH

Clare73 said:

The Catholic church deserves better representation. . .

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Ah, insults, that's all you got? Shows you character.

concretecamper said:

Ah, insults, that's all you got? Shows you character.

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Well, I have those of yours in post #19, but I was saving them for another day.

Catholic church is still limpin' a bit.

Clare73 said:

Well, I have those of yours in post #19, but I was saving them for another day.

Catholic church is still limpin' a bit.

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Poor recovery. You should move on.

Or maybe get the Greek lexicon you apparently got for Christmas and tell us what the Greek is for "demon faith"

concretecamper said:

Poor recovery.

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Are you sure about that?

concretecamper said:

You should move on.

Or maybe get the Greek lexicon you apparently got for Christmas and
tell us what the Greek is for "demon faith"

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So it's not so after all that "faith is faith" (post #15)?

And so. . . she's still limpin'.

@Mark Quayle wanna check the Greek lexicon you got for Christmas and tell us what the Greek is for obnoxious?

I initially thought I'd try to find some quotes from St. Augustine on the matter of faith, to see what the good doctor had to say. However I stumbled upon one of Augustine's influential predecessors, Gaius Marius Victorinus, also a Latin native of North Africa who came to Rome sometime in the mid 4th century who converted to Christianity, protested Julian the Apostate's education "reforms" by quitting his post as a teacher at an academy, wrote several works against Arianism and defending the Nicene Creed. But for our purposes here are his commentaries on several of St. Paul's letters, specifically those of Ephesians, Galatians, and Philippians (these, as well as his other works, all in Latin, can be found online here).

Curious to see how he addresses Paul's statements in Ephesians 2:8-9 we find this:

(Disclaimer: I am relying on Google Translate for the English translation)

"Nam gratia salvati estis per fidem. Explicavit aperte, quod a nobis fides debeatur: tantum autem debetur, ut credamus in Christo. Quod si ita, solum hoc nostrum est; non merito nostro salvi sumus, sed Dei gratia. Denique sic adjungit et hoc non ex vobis; Dei donum est:

Non ex operibus, ne quis forte glorietur. Quod salvi sumus, gratia, inquit, Dei est: ita et vos, Ephesii, quod salvi estis, non ex vobis; Dei donum est: neque ex operibus vestris, sed Dei gratia est, et Dei donum est, non meritum nostrum. Aliud esse opera, aliud meritum nostrum: unde separavit non ex vobis dicendo non ex operibus: praeter opera etenim, quae quotidie praebenda sunt in officiis in pauperes, et caetera benefacta. Sed etiam cum esse possit meritum ex officio et religione, ex castitate et abstinentia; non enim neque operibus vestris potest . Opera ista sunt. Ideo utrumque conclusit non ex vobis, neque ex operibus, et adjecit ne quis glorietur. Nescio quomodo enim qui operibus suis redditum meritum putat, suum vult esse, non praestantis: et haec jactatio est. " (Text in bold being the passages of Paul's letters)

"'For by grace you have been saved through faith'. He clearly explained that faith is owed by us: but it is only owed that we believe in Christ. But if so, this alone is ours; we are not saved by our own merit, but by the grace of God. Finally, he adds, 'and this is not of you; It is a gift of God':

'Not by works, lest any man should glory'. That we are saved, he says, is the grace of God: so also you, Ephesians, that you are saved, not of yourselves; It is God's gift: not from your works, but God's grace, and it is God's gift, not our merit. That works are one thing, and our merit another: whence he separated them, saying, not of you, not of works: besides works, indeed, which are daily given in the offices to the poor, and other benevolences. But even when there can be merit from duty and religion, from chastity and abstinence; for neither can it by your works. These are the works. Therefore he concluded both, not from you, nor from works, and added that no one should boast. For I do not know how he who thinks that the reward of his works is merited, wants it to be his own, and not of the superior: and this is boasting."

Ergo, salvation comes from God alone as grace through faith, faith from ourselves? Nay, faith that is from God, for all that we have is from God alone who in His mercy rescues us. So that even the faith which believes upon Christ cannot be merited to us, but to God; nothing from ourselves, and no work which we could do, would grant us any merit before God--but Christ alone is righteous, and we have received righteousness from God through faith--the gift of God.

And from Philippians 3:9,

"At non, inquit, hanc habens justitiam. Sed quam? Illam subjungit: Sed eam, quae est ex fide Christi, quam praedixit; ex Deo justitiam, ex fide . Hanc ergo justitiam, inquit, habet; non illam, quae ex lege est, quae in operibus est, ut dixi, et carnali disciplina; sed hanc quae ex Deo procedit. Quae illa est? justitia ex fide, quae est fides ex fide Christi, id est ex nobis in Christum. Et plenissime subjecit, quae sit fides nobis in Christum, unde nobis justitia est."

"But not, he says, having this righteousness. But how? He subjoins it: But that which is from the faith of Christ, which he foretold; righteousness from God, from faith. Therefore, he says, he has this righteousness; not that which is of the law, which is in works, as I said, and the discipline of the flesh; but this which proceeds from God. What is this? Righteousness from faith, which is faith from the faith of Christ, that is from us to Christ. And he submitted most fully, what should be our faith in Christ, from which we have righteousness."

(I have here slightly changed the wording in a few places, Google Translate variously chose "justice" and "righteousness" to translate justitiam, justitia, etc. I have simply chosen to keep "righteousness" for the sake of consistency, though the English words are synonymns. Additionally I changed Google Translate's "what is she" as a translation of quae illa est to "what is this". Nothing else has been altered by me.)

Christ, who by His righteousness was faithful to God gives us righteousness as a gift. This is the imputed righteousness of Christ, which is from God on account of Christ. For God grants faith, and righteousness through faith, as pure gift--as grace alone--and these entirely and solely by Christ's own merit.

-CryptoLutheran

John Chrysostom

” ‘He that believes in the Son has everlasting life.’ ‘Is it enough, then, to believe in the Son,’ someone will say, ‘in order to have everlasting life?’ By no means! Listen to Christ declare this himself when he says, ‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord! Lord!” shall enter into the kingdom of heaven’; and the b.asphemy against the Spirit is alone sufficient to cast him into hell. But why should I speak of a part of our teaching? For if a man believe rightly in the Father and in the Son and in the Holy Spirit, but does not live rightly, his faith will avail him nothing toward salvation” (Homilies on the Gospel of John 31:1 [circa A.D. 391]).

Mark Quayle said:

Or so your narrative goes. Now you need to support your bare assertion. And I really don't care even if you find it necessary, lacking Scriptural support, to do it from a merely logical point of view. We can do that.

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Exodus 4: 8 Then the Lord said, “If they do not believe you or pay attention to the first sign, they may believe the second. 9 But if they do not believe these two signs or listen to you,

Numbers 14:11 The Lord said to Moses, “How long will these people treat me with contempt? How long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have performed among them?

Here you find the Lord using the words “if”, “may”, “refuse” and “how long” suggesting their “faith/trust/belief is not controlled or up to God’s gift of a saving faith for some, but their faith in God/Moses was up to the people.

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

The idea is it is whoever believes and not wherever was made to believe.



John 1: 6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe.

John 4:41 And because of his words many more became believers.

John 17:20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,

John 20:31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Faith comes by hearing, so if they heard and listen to John or Jesus, they would believe. Not listening is also not believing.

John 3:15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

The controlling factor is believing (having faith in), which man controls.

John 6:29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Can we be incapable of doing God’s work for us to do?

John 12:42 Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue;

Here we have “faith/belief” but it is not a “saving faith”.

John 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.

Believing is a free will choice.

ViaCrucis said:

The "faith" to worship false gods, or to seek themselves, or even the mundane act of trusting the chair won't collapse under me when I sit on it, isn't what the New Testament talks about when it speaks of faith.

Faith justifies. How can faith in Odin or faith in human reason justify? It can't. So the New Testament isn't talking about some generic kind of faith. But the faith which is given as as the pure gift of God through the Gospel, that faith is faith that trusts Christ, that trusts God's promises, that trusts God's grace.

That faith comes only as the gift of God. That faith makes us new people.

-CryptoLutheran

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Not sure how “faith justifies”

God Justifies us.

Faith can be counted for righteousness, but justification is different.

John 12:42 Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue;

Here we have “faith/belief” but it is not a “saving faith”.

bling said:
I never said faith was not a gift, but all mature adults have been gifted with some faith which enables them ti trust, believe and worship many things. A saving faith comes when the person of their own free will direct their faith toward a beneficent Creator for help.
Mark Quayle said:
Or so your narrative goes. Now you need to support your bare assertion. And I really don't care even if you find it necessary, lacking Scriptural support, to do it from a merely logical point of view. We can do that.

bling said:

Exodus 4: 8 Then the Lord said, “If they do not believe you or pay attention to the first sign, they may believe the second. 9 But if they do not believe these two signs or listen to you,

Numbers 14:11 The Lord said to Moses, “How long will these people treat me with contempt? How long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have performed among them?

Here you find the Lord using the words “if”, “may”, “refuse” and “how long” suggesting their “faith/trust/belief is not controlled or up to God’s gift of a saving faith for some, but their faith in God/Moses was up to the people.

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"Suggesting", to whom? You show nothing here that suggests to me that they are able to repent apart from God's enabling. You aren't even referencing prevenient grace.

bling said:

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

The idea is it is whoever believes and not wherever was made to believe.

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(I don't know why it is putting that little empty quote box there. Hmm)

Oh well. There are many such verses. It is, after all, through faith that we are saved. And yes, whoever believes —after all, Calvinism also says that whosoever will, may come, and he that comes to Christ he will in no way cast out.

If it doesn't say 'whoever was made to believe', how does that demonstrate 'saving faith is possible apart from the work of God'.

bling said:

John 1: 6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe.

John 4:41 And because of his words many more became believers.

John 17:20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,

John 20:31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Faith comes by hearing, so if they heard and listen to John or Jesus, they would believe. Not listening is also not believing.

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How do these show that faith is not a gift of God?

bling said:

John 3:15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

The controlling factor is believing (having faith in), which man controls.

John 6:29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Can we be incapable of doing God’s work for us to do?

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Regardless of whether saved or not saved, we each will fulfill precisely that for which God individually created each of us; just as the Devil steps precisely where God had intended, to accomplish that for which God made him.

bling said:

John 12:42 Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue;

Here we have “faith/belief” but it is not a “saving faith”.

John 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.

Believing is a free will choice.

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Notice Thomas was convinced, without even touching the Lord.

Humans are not capable of knowing how they are being saved. God transcends human rationality.

bling said:

Not sure how “faith justifies”

God Justifies us.

Faith can be counted for righteousness, but justification is different.

John 12:42 Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue;

Here we have “faith/belief” but it is not a “saving faith”.

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Why is faith counted as righteousness? Whose righteousness? Our righteousness? Are we righteous because we believe the right things? That would just be more works.

We are justified through faith because through faith God gives us His righteousness, in this way faith justifies. For it is the gift of God.

If anyone says, "I did this" then they are trusting in themselves. That is death.

-CryptoLutheran

Ain't Zwinglian said:

Yes, I thought that also. I have heard of faith, assent, knowledge. But "affection"??? I am not so sure.

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What about the two greatest comments?

“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matthew 22:36-40

ViaCrucis said:

Why is faith counted as righteousness? Whose righteousness? Our righteousness? Are we righteous because we believe the right things? That would just be more works.

We are justified through faith because through faith God gives us His righteousness, in this way faith justifies. For it is the gift of God.

If anyone says, "I did this" then they are trusting in themselves. That is death.

-CryptoLutheran

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Rather they should say "God did this".

IoanC said:

Humans are not capable of knowing how they are being saved. God transcends human rationality.

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I agree to a point. One of the ways, I think, that man can be said to be made in the image of God is in his innate spiritual nature, which is, as Ephesians 2 and other passages point out, in the natural man, dead. (Yet there remains conscience, intellect and senses, and intuition, "wherefore he is without excuse".

Our intellect certainly is incapable of knowing, and particularly incapable of communicating it, to any degree one might call "complete", but in the same way as the Spirit of God witnesses to our spirit that we are the Children of God, it also gives our spirit, not unreasonably, but beyond reason, a 'knowing' of what and how he is doing in matters of salvation. The problem here is the intrusion of the intellect, the pride of the human in his intellect, the visceral 'need' of the believer to relate the fact and joy of it to others, and so on. We-do-but-we-don't, understand it. Our mind (heart) may have some good feel for it, but our intellect —not so much.

ViaCrucis said:

Why is faith counted as righteousness? Whose righteousness? Our righteousness? Are we righteous because we believe the right things? That would just be more works.

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Faith is our “work” and really the only thing we bring to the relationship, so we can talk about justification and righteousness being the outcome of our faith through God’s Love and mercy.

Christians with Godly type Love and the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit can be righteous for a day and longer. This is directly the result of allowing the Spirit and God’s Love to control us and nothing we could do on our own.

ViaCrucis said:

We are justified through faith because through faith God gives us His righteousness, in this way faith justifies. For it is the gift of God.

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I do not see God imputing His righteousness to us, but God forgives us and we experience Loving discipline through being crucified with Christ. Deity now dwells with in us, so we have that righteousness within us allowing us to be righteous by not squelching the Spirit.

ViaCrucis said:

If anyone says, "I did this" then they are trusting in themselves. That is death.

-CryptoLutheran

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Amy “good” we “do”, is the result of us allowing the indwelling Holy Spirit to work through us.

bling said:

Faith is our “work” and really the only thing we bring to the relationship, so we can talk about justification and righteousness being the outcome of our faith through God’s Love and mercy.

Christians with Godly type Love and the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit can be righteous for a day and longer. This is directly the result of allowing the Spirit and God’s Love to control us and nothing we could do on our own.

I do not see God imputing His righteousness to us,

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Then see 1 Co 1:30, Ro 1:17, Ro 3:21, Ro 4:1-11.

bling said:

Faith is our “work” and really the only thing we bring to the relationship, so we can talk about justification and righteousness being the outcome of our faith through God’s Love and mercy.

Christians with Godly type Love and the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit can be righteous for a day and longer. This is directly the result of allowing the Spirit and God’s Love to control us and nothing we could do on our own.

I do not see God imputing His righteousness to us, but God forgives us and we experience Loving discipline through being crucified with Christ. Deity now dwells with in us, so we have that righteousness within us allowing us to be righteous by not squelching the Spirit.

Amy “good” we “do”, is the result of us allowing the indwelling Holy Spirit to work through us.

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I'll be honest, if one doesn't believe in justification by grace alone through faith alone then they are denying and negating the whole point of the Reformation. The Reformation stands or falls on this singular doctrine of justification, and if the Reformation was wrong then nobody has any business being "Protestant", because then Rome is correct in saying that Protestants are in open rebellion against Christ and His Church.

If all that remains is schism for the sake of schism, then it is sin pure and simple.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

I'll be honest, if one doesn't believe in justification by grace alone through faith alone then they are denying and negating the whole point of the Reformation. The Reformation stands or falls on this singular doctrine of justification, and if the Reformation was wrong then nobody has any business being "Protestant", because then Rome is correct in saying that Protestants are in open rebellion against Christ and His Church.

If all that remains is open schism for the sake of schism, then it is sin pure and simple.

-CryptoLutheran

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A lot of Protestants believe in "Lordship Salvation". Which was popularized by John MacArthur. After having debated justification by grace alone through faith alone with a Catholic, I realized how much the tenants of Lordship Salvation sound like Catholicism. Ironically MacArthur strongly denounces Catholicism as being works based salvation.

MMXX said:

A lot of Protestants believe in "Lordship Salvation". Which was popularized by John MacArthur. After having debated justification by grace alone through faith alone with a Catholic, I realized how much the tenants of Lordship Salvation sound like Catholicism. Ironically MacArthur strongly denounces Catholicism as being works based salvation.

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Having spent a lot of time learning about and talking with Catholic and Orthodox Christians, I actually think in many ways a lot of the Protestant world is more works-oriented and works-focused when it comes to salvation. In both Catholicism and Orthodoxy it is still understood that faith is properly a matter of grace rather than human effort. Rome has never denied that faith is a gift, but has argued that faith is a gift we receive by accepting it and cooperating with God's grace by acting upon that faith through good works.

What I see in a lot of the various modern Protestantisms is, instead, that faith is the work we do and that we come to God offering our work of faith and that God responds positively by calling our good work of faith righteous. Thus it is a salvation by works, not even a salvation by grace alone through faith in and with good works; but by our works. God's "grace" is reduced to merely a reward on the basis of our own righteous merit.

In that sense, Catholicism and Orthodoxy are far closer to the doctrine of the Reformation than much of modern Protestantism.

Lordship Salvation certainly is, as best as I've understood it, pretty close to Rome's view of cooperation, but even then I think Rome is more grace-focused than the proponents of Lordship Salvation. As the ruling principle of even the doctrine of cooperation is still God's free grace. From the perspective of the Reformation Rome errs because she confesses justification not as imputed righteousness, but as infused righteousness. But, again, what I observe in the theology of many Protestants is neither imputed nor infused righteousness, but rather a totally personal righteousness exhibited in the act of believing. Thus there is no righteousness from God, but only the righteousness of the sinner. Infused righteousness is closer to imputed righteousness than either are to self righteousness.

-CryptoLutheran