entropy vs. life from non-life

meshnaster · Nov 2, 2004

the 2nd law of thermodynamics says that everything is the universe is constantly moving from a state of order to a state of disorder and that it never moves in the opposite direction. this is an absolute law of physics proven to be fact and can be witnessed in the world around us today.

how could life come from non-life without a creator to imput energy and organization? because its' a proven fact that it can't happen by itself. (unless you think that life is less ordered than non-life, which seems to be an illogical opinion)

HRE · Nov 2, 2004

I've never heard of the laws of thermodynamics. What do they say? What does the second law say.

All the rest of you guys, I've heard your definitions and I just don't understand them. Before you start trying to refute this guy, do you think you could let him explain thermodynamics to me?

WaZoO · Nov 2, 2004

Closed system vs open system?

How do snowflakes and crystals form? How is it possible to make a building?

meshnaster · Nov 2, 2004

i did a google search, and these bits from various places seem to explain it as simply as i've seen:

[size=+1]Energy exists in many forms, such as heat, light, chemical energy, and electrical energy. Energy is the ability to bring about change or to do work. Thermodynamics is the study of energy.[/size]

[size=+1]1st law of thermodynamics: Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. The total amount of energy and matter in the Universe remains constant, merely changing from one form to another. The First Law of Thermodynamics (Conservation) states that energy is always conserved, it cannot be created or destroyed. In essence, energy can be converted from one form into another.[/size]

[size=+1]Second Law of Thermodynamics[/size]

[size=+1]Heat can never pass spontaneously from a colder to a hotter body. As a result of this fact, natural processes that involve energy transfer must have one direction, and all natural processes are irreversible. This law also predicts that the entropy of an isolated system always increases with time. Entropy is the measure of the disorder or randomness of energy and matter in a system. Because of the second law of thermodynamics both energy and matter in the universe are becoming less useful as time goes on.[/size]

[size=+1]Third Law of Thermodynamics[/size]

[size=+1]The third law of thermodynamics states that if all the thermal motion of molecules could be removed, a state called absolute zero would occur. Absolute zero results in a temperature of 0 Kelvin (or -273.15°Celcius). [/size][size=+1]The Universe will attain absolute zero when all energy and matter is randomly distributed across space[/size]

meshnaster · Nov 2, 2004

WaZoO said:
Closed system vs open system?

How do snowflakes and crystals form? How is it possible to make a building?

i'm not familiar enough with snow to know exactly what you are trying to say with the snowflakes. i thought that snowflakes were made when water freezes as it falls, but then somehow hits an upcurrent and goes back up and changes from hard ice into softer stuff. i may be wrong about that, though. but nevertheless, a snowflake is a tiny ball of chaotic H2O. that's why no two are the same.

it is possible to make a building because people are exerting force on the building pieces, which gives them more energy, so they can move and be made into things.

if you had 1 ton of bricks, and you put them in a box (a big box), and you let them sit there for eternity, they would absolutely never create a building. that's what the 2nd law is saying. if you exerted energy on the bricks, then it's possible to make a building, but they will never ever do it without more energy.

caravelair · Nov 2, 2004

meshnaster said:
the 2nd law of thermodynamics says that everything is the universe is constantly moving from a state of order to a state of disorder and that it never moves in the opposite direction.

no. the 2nd law states nothing of the sort.

meshnaster · Nov 2, 2004

you are correct in what you said in your post except for when you said this:

caravelair said:
no. the 2nd law states nothing of the sort.

the universe is a system. randomness is the same as disorder in this sense. the system is moving from a state of order to disorder because of entropy.

if no life existed in the system, then life could not ever exist in the system because it is more organized than non-life, unless some force outside of the universe system put energy into the system that could create life.

Magnus Vile · Nov 2, 2004

meshnaster said:
the 2nd law of thermodynamics says that everything is the universe is constantly moving from a state of order to a state of disorder and that it never moves in the opposite direction. this is an absolute law of physics proven to be fact and can be witnessed in the world around us today.

how could life come from non-life without a creator to imput energy and organization? because its' a proven fact that it can't happen by itself. (unless you think that life is less ordered than non-life, which seems to be an illogical opinion)

I'm confused. Are you calling the scientists that don't posit a deity as a requirement for life, stupid or decietful? Or do you think no one has ever said, "Hey, what about the second law of Thermodynamics?"

To borrow a sig line from another poster, (Mistermystery via Jet Black, I think it is)

"The Second Law: There is no process for which the unique effect is the removal of positive heat from a reservoir and the production of positive work."

Also, you don't insert complexity. Chemistry does that all by itself. To maintain the idea that the second law somehow addresses the beginnings of life it would be necessary to first, misunderstand what the 2nd law actually addresses, and second, explain how the process of making a baby doesn't violate that misunderstood rule. Or as someone pointed out, how water manages to create complex, symmetrical, crystals.

More eloquently, this was recently discussed here, http://www.christianforums.com/t1101018-butchery-of-the-laws-of-thermodynamics.html

Randall McNally · Nov 2, 2004

meshnaster said:
the universe is a system. randomness is the same as disorder in this sense. the system is moving from a state of order to disorder because of entropy.

Maybe. Currently, the entire universe is unobservable, so speculation about whether or not the universe as a whole adheres to thermodynamics is just that.

if no life existed in the system, then life could not ever exist in the system because it is more organized than non-life, unless some force outside of the universe system put energy into the system that could create life.

Wholly false. The only thing the 2nd Law requires - if it actually applies to the universe as a whole - is a net increase in entropy. There isn't any prohibition against temporary, local decreases in entropy where sufficient energy can be applied to a subsystem. These types of organizing processes are literally everywhere; for example, a human zygote constructs a fetal body over 36 weeks by assembling materials it receives from the mother.

Magnus Vile · Nov 2, 2004

how could life come from non-life without a creator to imput energy and organization? because its' a proven fact that it can't happen by itself. (unless you think that life is less ordered than non-life, which seems to be an illogical opinion)

Just out of interest. Is god complex and ordered?

Project2501 · Nov 2, 2004

meshnaster said:
the 2nd law of thermodynamics says that everything is the universe is constantly moving from a state of order to a state of disorder and that it never moves in the opposite direction. this is an absolute law of physics proven to be fact and can be witnessed in the world around us today.

how could life come from non-life without a creator to imput energy and organization? because its' a proven fact that it can't happen by itself. (unless you think that life is less ordered than non-life, which seems to be an illogical opinion)

not really. chemistry falsifies your argument. Chemistry demonstrates that entropy can decrease locally, while increasing globally. In a chemical reaction, bonds are formed decreasing the order of the chemical system, however heat is released increasing the entropy of the system as a whole. The Sun is increasing entropy in the universe as a whole, but keeps the entropy on the earth low, because it provides a source of very organised heat and light (organised in that it comes from a small defined location)

gluadys · Nov 3, 2004

meshnaster said:
but nevertheless, a snowflake is a tiny ball of chaotic H2O. that's why no two are the same.

Actually, I believe a snowflake is a tiny ball of ordered H2O, since it is in the form of crystals.

michabo · Nov 3, 2004

meshnaster said:
Heat can never pass spontaneously from a colder to a hotter body. As a result of this fact, natural processes that involve energy transfer must have one direction, and all natural processes are irreversible. This law also predicts that the entropy of an isolated system always increases with time. Entropy is the measure of the disorder or randomness of energy and matter in a system. Because of the second law of thermodynamics both energy and matter in the universe are becoming less useful as time goes on.

Sounds good to me.

Perhaps now you can tell us why you think the inability to use heat (or the random, chaotic motion of particles) should prevent life or evolution? I'd like you to use your own words, but please relate it back to the specific definitions you gave.

gluadys · Nov 3, 2004

meshnaster said:
the 2nd law of thermodynamics says that everything is the universe is constantly moving from a state of order to a state of disorder and that it never moves in the opposite direction. this is an absolute law of physics proven to be fact and can be witnessed in the world around us today.

how could life come from non-life without a creator to imput energy and organization? because its' a proven fact that it can't happen by itself. (unless you think that life is less ordered than non-life, which seems to be an illogical opinion)

Fortunately a source of energy exists which serves this purpose. It is called the sun. The energy of the sun is the basic source of energy for many physical, chemical and biological processes e.g. photosynthesis.

gluadys · Nov 3, 2004

meshnaster said:
if no life existed in the system, then life could not ever exist in the system because it is more organized than non-life, unless some force outside of the universe system put energy into the system that could create life.

No, the energy to create and sustain life does not need to come from outside the universe. It comes from stars, and for the earth it comes from our local star--the sun.

What you have forgotten is that the universe did not begin in a state of randomness. Nor does it exist in a state of randomness today. The universe displays an enormous contrast between hot spots (stars) and the near absolute zero of interstellar space.

This means that there is a constant flow of energy from the stars into space.

This flow of energy is available to any planet near a star for the purpose of converting it into a usable form to do work---such as supporting the origin and maintenance of life.

This does not violate the 2LOT because the planet is a small, local and open sub-system within the universe. It is capturing only a very small amount of the energy from its star which does not disturb the overall trend to randomness in the universe as a whole.

Norseman · Nov 3, 2004

meshnaster said:
the 2nd law of thermodynamics says that everything is the universe is constantly moving from a state of order to a state of disorder and that it never moves in the opposite direction. this is an absolute law of physics proven to be fact and can be witnessed in the world around us today.

how could life come from non-life without a creator to imput energy and organization? because its' a proven fact that it can't happen by itself. (unless you think that life is less ordered than non-life, which seems to be an illogical opinion)

Gah! My brain, implosion, critical failure, damage sustained, seizure imminent!

X X
__

Mistermystery · Nov 3, 2004

The sig has been provided. Read the sig, understand the sig, and see that the second law of thermodynamics talks about spontaneous heat flow, or to be more precise, about the impossibility to perform useful work indefinitely. The "organized complexity" bit you put on in the starting OP, is entirely fictional, ditto for the direction you take with the 2lotd.

funyun · Nov 3, 2004

meshnaster said:
the 2nd law of thermodynamics says that everything is the universe is constantly moving from a state of order to a state of disorder and that it never moves in the opposite direction. this is an absolute law of physics proven to be fact and can be witnessed in the world around us today.

how could life come from non-life without a creator to imput energy and organization? because its' a proven fact that it can't happen by itself. (unless you think that life is less ordered than non-life, which seems to be an illogical opinion)

1) Oh lord. This again?

2) The 2nd Law doesn't talk about order and disorder. If I may direct you to Mistermystery's profile...

3) The 2nd Law is NOT an absolute, it is a tendency.

4) The whole claim about this "proven fact" is an outright untruth. The existence of a god is not a proven fact by any stretch of the imagination, and neither is the non-existence of a god.

5) Life is no more ordered than non-life unless you want to look at it subjectively. Objectively more complicated? Yes. Objectively more ordered? No. What does this vacuus dichotomy of order versus disorder anyway?

JohnR7 · Nov 3, 2004

meshnaster said:
the 2nd law of thermodynamics says that everything is the universe is constantly moving from a state of order to a state of disorder

The Bible says pretty much the same thing. God created this world according to His order and the world is moving away from that to disorder. The good news is that He does have a plan of restoration to set this world back according to His origional plan and purpose.

Randall McNally · Nov 3, 2004

JohnR7 said:
The Bible says pretty much the same thing. God created this world according to His order and the world is moving away from that to disorder. The good news is that He does have a plan of restoration to set this world back according to His origional plan and purpose.

Do you realize that, by definition, nothing that occurs can do so without the permission of an all-powerful being? God doesn't have Plan A and Plan B, He has a plan. Period. If he chooses not to use his all-powerfulness to instantiate some part of His plan, then that becomes part of His plan.

This talk about "His origional[sic] plan and purpose" and the convoluted machinations needed to restore it is sheer nonsense.

entropy vs. life from non-life

Member

HRE

Guest

~Appeal To Insanity~

Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Secrecy and accountability cannot coexist.

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Legend

reason, evidence

Legend

Legend

EAC Representative

Here's looking at you kid

aude sapere...sed praeterea, aude esse

Well-Known Member

Secrecy and accountability cannot coexist.

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency