Ellen White

kat8585 said:

I am a SDA, but one thing I have always wondered about that has never been shown to me is exactly where in the Bible, with texts, it points to Ellen White. I've never seen it. Personally, I think her writings are used too much as equal to scripture in the church, and I don't agree with that. Some of her writings are beautiful, but are not equal to scripture. Someone once showed me a video that showed her in a very bad light, trying to turn me against the SDA church. I told this person that Ellen White- bashing was irrelevant to me, because I don't get my beliefs from her, I get them from the Bible.

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I don't believe that the Bible points to Ellen White at all. If she truly was a prophet of God (and honestly I have some doubts about that), that would mean that she had the biblical gift of prophecy, but the Bible doesn't specifically mention her. The Bible also gives us tests to help us determine whether a prophet is true or false, and we can apply them to EGW's writings to see if she fits the biblical criteria for being a prophet (although many Adventists disagree on whether she stands the test).

Many Adventists refer to EGW's writings as the "Spirit of Prophecy," quoting from Revelation 19:10:They also relate this to the following texts:Many Adventists see these as directly referencing the Adventist Church and Ellen White. I personally do not believe that these texts refer to EGW or even to the Adventist Church because not all of the remnant will be Adventists, and not all Adventists will be part of the remnant. This simply addresses all true Christians who remain faithful to God at the end of time. Also, even if EGW were a true prophet, calling her "the spirit of prophecy," as if she embodied the whole of prophecy, is taking Rev. 19:10 completely out of context. The angel was telling John not to worship him because he was not the focus of the visions John was being given; Jesus was. Prophecy is given to testify about Jesus, not to glorify the messenger. That was the angel's point, not that EGW was the spirit of prophecy.

I agree with you that many Adventists place EGW's writings on an equal level with Scripture although that is not our official belief. However, many Adventists do interpret the Bible through the filter of Ellen White rather than reading it for what it actually says. All of our doctrines must be tested by the Bible, not by Ellen White.

I don't agree with putting E.G White's writings before the bible either, and I occasionally see people doing that, but we don't base our doctrines on what she says. I think some of her writings have great truth, but she herself says they are not to be used for doctrine, and are only a lesser light pointing to a greater light (Jesus Christ)

Sophia7 said:

I don't believe that the Bible points to Ellen White at all. If she truly was a prophet of God (and honestly I have some doubts about that), that would mean that she had the biblical gift of prophecy, but the Bible doesn't specifically mention her. The Bible also gives us tests to help us determine whether a prophet is true or false, and we can apply them to EGW's writings to see if she fits the biblical criteria for being a prophet (although many Adventists disagree on whether she stands the test).


Many Adventists refer to EGW's writings as the "Spirit of Prophecy," quoting from Revelation 19:10:

REV 19:10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (NIV)​

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They also relate this to the following texts:

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (KJV)​

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (KJV)​

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Many Adventists see these as directly referencing the Adventist Church and Ellen White. I personally do not believe that these texts refer to EGW or even to the Adventist Church because not all of the remnant will be Adventists, and not all Adventists will be part of the remnant. This simply addresses all true Christians who remain faithful to God at the end of time. Also, even if EGW were a true prophet, calling her "the spirit of prophecy," as if she embodied the whole of prophecy, is taking Rev. 19:10 completely out of context. The angel was telling John not to worship him because he was not the focus of the visions John was being given; Jesus was. Prophecy is given to testify about Jesus, not to glorify the messenger. That was the angel's point, not that EGW was the spirit of prophecy.

I agree with you that many Adventists place EGW's writings on an equal level with Scripture although that is not our official belief. However, many Adventists do interpret the Bible through the filter of Ellen White rather than reading it for what it actually says. All of our doctrines must be tested by the Bible, not by Ellen White.

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I'd have to say those statements are a misunderstanding.

SDAs who study and understand Ellen White's writings do not say she's the Spirit of Prophesy. The spirit of prophesy is the testimony of Jesus.

You can speculate on some fine points of Ellen White's writings like you would find some verses of the bible appear to contradict the others. But together they paint a bigger picture. If one considers all the areas the spirit of prophecy touches on, and its beauty and granduer that uplifts Jesus christ as our Savior, it's pretty hard to deny its inspiration.

^That's right! I agree

OntheDL said:

I'd have to say those statements are a misunderstanding.

SDAs who study and understand Ellen White's writings do not say she's the Spirit of Prophesy. The spirit of prophesy is the testimony of Jesus.

You can speculate on some fine points of Ellen White's writings like you would find some verses of the bible appear to contradict the others. But together they paint a bigger picture. If one considers all the areas the spirit of prophecy touches on, and its beauty and granduer that uplifts Jesus christ as our Savior, it's pretty hard to deny its inspiration.

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Yes, I agree that those who make such statements misunderstand. I hear people say stuff like that quite often, though. I also agree that Ellen White's writings overall uplift Christ and are very inspirational. Whether or not she was a prophet is a different issue and not one that we should debate here.

Sophia7 said:

Whether or not she was a prophet is a different issue and not one that we should debate here.

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Is there a palce on christian forums that she can be debated? The main SDA board?

-AT

Ellen White didn't make up doctine, but she confirmed it through her visions and writings. In effect, what Adventists officially accepted or rejected in the development of doctrine was largely decided based on her counsel. In the Adventist Church, there is no way that a question on biblical interpretation would ever be allowed to be officially settled in a way that went against something that Ellen White wrote. We have in some cases interpreted the Bible to fit her views rather than reading it for what it actually says. We have made belief in her a test of Adventist orthodoxy although I understand that she herself never intended it to be so. Though we historically have claimed to disdain creeds, our statement of fundamental beliefs for all practical purposes might as well be a creed, and a much more rigid and extensive creed than most others at that. Here is what William Johnsson, the outgoing Adventist Review editor wrote in his parting words:

2. Theological polarization: Sound theology is vital; it must never be compromised. But the Fundamental Beliefs draw the boundaries, and so long as any Adventist assents to them, he or she deserves respect and fellowship. Points of doctrine not spelled out in the Fundamentals must not be allowed to divide us.

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Did he really mean what he said here? Do Adventists who disagree with some of the Fundamental Beliefs not deserve respect and fellowship? If so, that's a pretty harsh statement from someone who has a history of trying to officially defend Adventist doctrines like the IJ against the attacks of critics. Does he really think that we all have to agree on all of these or be removed from fellowship? He is ignoring and alientating a large percentage of the Adventist membership who do not believe that all of our doctrines have biblical support.

The truth is that some Adventist doctrines did not come from the Bible alone. The IJ doctrine is not from the Bible only. Without Hiram Edson's cornfield revelation and EGW's visions, no one would ever have come up with that doctrine just based on the Bible. Almost all of our other distinctive doctrines (probably with the exception of the belief in EGW as a prophet) have at some point found acceptance by some other Christians as they saw the support for them in the Bible. Not so with this one.

Also, in one of our local churches, we have many members who are non-Trinitarian. They base their beliefs on the early writings of EGW. There was great debate over that issue among the early Adventists, many of whom were semi-Arian, including James White. The church did eventually officially accept the Trinity doctrine after EGW started writing more in favor of it in her later works. Did the Bible change? No, but Adventist understanding changed as Ellen White's beliefs progressed on certain issues. They accepted that doctrine because of what she said, not only what the Bible said.

Yes, Adventists do base some doctrines on what she said, including the belief in her as a prophet. Here is our official statement on EGW:

18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)
http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

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Notice that they use Rev. 12:17 and 19:10, which I quoted above, as scriptural support for EGW when these texts really have nothing to do with her. This doctrine is in our official beliefs, but it's not based on the principle of sola scriptura. The very fact that Adventists use EGW as an authoritative source of truth makes us more prima scriptura than sola scriptura. That's not necessarily bad, in my opinion, as long as they test these beliefs by the Bible, which they claim to do (though sometimes in a circular fashion, interpreting the Bible to fit what they already believe because of EGW). However, I think that many Adventists are intellectually dishonest in trying to minimize Ellen White's role in the formation of our doctrines and the continuing authoritative influence of her writings in the church.

Adventtruth said:

Is there a palce on christian forums that she can be debated? The main SDA board?

-AT

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Yes, in fact, I think that this thread would be best moved there to allow for more open discussion since we seem to be generating some debate here.