ECF's -Which ones were right?

Uphill Battle · Aug 12, 2008

I disagree with the assesment. They are idols, false Gods. Not representations of THE God. They attributed the life saving exodus from Egypt to false Gods... not the other way around.

It doesn't read the way you suggest.

MrPolo · Aug 12, 2008

simonthezealot said:
Seriously how does an institute decide which fathers to trust and who not to...They are all over the place on EVERY issue with the exception of the very most fundamental aspects of Christianity.

A good question. I have only skimmed the thread so apologies if there is repeat, but it looks like most of it is confusion over "icons" now. I would first say the ECFs are not "all over the place." That's a relative phrase anyway. To answer the question in your subject line: "Which ones were right?" Revelation transmitted by Tradition is not a matter of "everything Cyprian says is right" or "everything Tertullian says is wrong". It is a matter of unanimity among them as a unit, of a single Body. The Magisterium established by Christ (whoever hears you, hears me, et al) is our safeguard to settle matters when a dispute may arise (you disagree, which is fine, but that is the answer to the question). This occurred for example when Gnostics stemmed from Christianity or the Arians expressed other heresies, and bishops settled matters in councils (cf. Acts 15). If the question were: "Which writers' letters belong in Scripture?", it would be answered the same way--the Church recognized the canon of the New Testament through use in the churches over time.

Anyone who therefore trusts the early Church's infallibility in determining the canon, should embrace that same Church's teaching on the Real Presence or baptismal regeneration, for instance, on which there is even more unanimity than even the canon!

simonthezealot · Aug 12, 2008

Thekla said:
Arron says (as written in the above quoted text)

"these are your gods" (think that is pretty plain)

If you match it up to the calfs set up at bethel and Dan you'll find they weren't worshipping as a different God or even as God but as an image for "God Almighty"...

read 1 kings 12:28, Jeroboam would never have intended to ask the 10 tribes to cast off their allegiance to the God of David and of Solomon? after setting up the calfs in Bethel and Dan he said

28"It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem. Here are your gods, O Israel, which brought you up from the land of Egypt!" 29 And he set up one in Bethel, and the other he put in Dan.

Not a rival to God, but a help-a step up to Him and to His service....
The honor due God was given a visble representation.

This seems to put things into a startling perspective in regards to statues icons and the likes.

simonthezealot · Aug 12, 2008

Uphill Battle said:
I disagree with the assesment. They are idols, false Gods. Not representations of THE God. They attributed the life saving exodus from Egypt to false Gods... not the other way around.

It doesn't read the way you suggest.

On what basis would you level this suggestion?

Then you'll need to explain the calves at dan and bethel, its important we interpret scripture with scripture...

Thekla · Aug 12, 2008

simonthezealot said:
The "s" was added to the hebrew word eloyhim by the translators, but as you know it is a plural word to start with!

LXX says "gods"

they wanted another/different; they were turning their back on God, "pining for onions"

Yarddog · Aug 12, 2008

simonthezealot said:
The golden calf was the image of THE unseen God meant to represent YAHWEH ( the God who lead them out of egypt, whom they had a feast day for) These people where worshippiing God through the calf.

You didn't answer my question, "How does the golden calf "mirror" holy icons?"

Icons are not made of the unseen God. May you or Anglian correct me if I'm wrong, but I have never seen an image of God the Father in the Catholic Church.

The Church does not worship icons, though some people may take it too far. So how does the golden calf mirror holy icons?

Yarddog

Thekla · Aug 12, 2008

the Kings passage you cite also says "gods"

simonthezealot · Aug 12, 2008

dupe post..

simonthezealot · Aug 12, 2008

Why don't each of you guys instead of arguing with me go to your favorite commentary and view what they've got to say about it...EVEN the Catholic bishops say as much as I am telling you, this isn't some wierd concept translation simonthezealot made up!!! i've read and studied from both my apostolic upbringing and my bible christian fundy view...It is what it is.

simonthezealot · Aug 12, 2008

Yarddog said:
You didn't answer my question, "How does the golden calf "mirror" holy icons?"

Icons are not made of the unseen God. May you or Anglian correct me if I'm wrong, but I have never seen an image of God the Father in the Catholic Church.

The Church does not worship icons, though some people may take it too far. So how does the golden calf mirror holy icons?

Yarddog

As I stated Moses was the truth visible for them and when he disappeared they wanted a visible image replacement to view for our God eloyohim

Thekla · Aug 12, 2008

or they got "nervous" (lost faith) and reverted to idolatry/worship of false gods ... wasn't the last time, either

simonthezealot · Aug 12, 2008

MrPolo said:
The Magisterium established by Christ (whoever hears you, hears me, et al) is our safeguard to settle matters when a dispute may arise (you disagree, which is fine, but that is the answer to the question).

Can you show how we are to assume that this is in the hands as Rome claims...of Rome alone, even to this day?

NOPE

simonthezealot · Aug 12, 2008

Thekla said:
or they got "nervous" (lost faith) and reverted to idolatry/worship of false gods ... wasn't the last time, either

Answer then the charge your then leveling on Jeroboam in "Kings" because Jeroboam would never have intended to ask the 10 tribes to cast off their allegiance to the God of David and of Solomon?

simonthezealot · Aug 12, 2008

Thekla said:
the Kings passage you cite also says "gods"

Thekla your guilty of looking at one word that can be translated numerous ways and NOT reading it in context...
Take a look...
Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
29 And he set the one in Bethel, and the other put he in Dan.
30 And this thing became a sin: for the people went to worship before the one, even unto Dan.

Yarddog · Aug 12, 2008

simonthezealot said:
As I stated Moses was the truth visible for them and when he disappeared they wanted a visible image replacement to view for our God eloyohim

Why do you keep dodging my question? The golden calf and holy icons are two entirely separate things.

As you point out, the golden calf was the Israelites image of the unseen God and they were worshipping the calf. Holy Icons are not worshipped.

We worship the unseen God and Father of us all. We do not worship icons.

Icons are images of the seen God and only begotten Son of the Father. Jesus was seen bodily. He came in flesh and blood. These images are not worshipped.

I, myself, do not have icons in my house or any images, personally. My wife does have one cross, which was given to us because we have some Thomas Kincaide paintings, and the cross has one of his paintings on it.

Even though I don't have any holy images in my house nor do I pray to the saints, I understand why the Catholic Church does and I know that no worship is involved.

All worship of the Catholic and Orthodox is totally in God.

Yarddog

simonthezealot · Aug 12, 2008

Yarddog said:
Why do you keep dodging my question? The golden calf and holy icons are two entirely separate things.

As you point out, the golden calf was the Israelites image of the unseen God and they were worshipping the calf. Holy Icons are not worshipped.

We worship the unseen God and Father of us all. We do not worship icons.

Icons are images of the seen God and only begotten Son of the Father. Jesus was seen bodily. He came in flesh and blood. These images are not worshipped.

As I pointed out earlier to Anglian...Show me ONCE where I said you guys worship these things...I haven't!
I have NOT even said Aarons group was worshipping I said they created this as a visible image for our God...
Quit painting your preconcieved notion of my point of view please...Thanks!
I don't answer FALSE acusations

Thekla · Aug 12, 2008

sorry for the delay: Jeroboam in the LXX is in IIIKings, so I had to go hunting a bit.

12:48

"If this people go up to offer sacrifices in the house of the Lord at Jerusalem, then the heart of this people will turn back to their lord and master Rehoboam king of Judah, and they will kill me. 49. Therefore the king deliberated and went and made two calves of gold. He then said to the people, You have traveled enough to Jerusalem. Behold, O Israel your gods who brought you up from the land of Egypt. He placed one in Bethel and the other in Dan. This word became a sin, and the people went to worship before the one as far as Dan. He also made houses on the high places, and he made priests from every class of people, even those who were not of the sons of Levi."

reads to me as if Jeroboam reintroduced false worship, other gods

Anglian · Aug 12, 2008

simonthezealot said:
Anglian it does not take a high level of genius to understand PLAIN scripture, just a desire to study ... and honest doesn't necessarily need to be ones personal POV just a view from the plain reading of scripture.

Dear Simon,

It has been pointed out many times that one person's 'plain reading' is another's heresy; if 'plain reading' were so clear you would not have to have recourse to a Catholic commentary to back up your view of the incident of the Golden Calf; you would also accept the 'plain reading' that the bread and wine are the body and blood of the Lord. You don't, we do; you claim 'plain reading', and so do we; at the very least 'plain reading' is not all it is cracked up to be.

Try setting down the orthodox presupposition and view it in an honest light,

You are quick to take offence, and yet my plain reading of this is that you are implying I do not read it in an honest light. If you do not mean this, what do you mean? If you do mean this, how can you presume to know whether I read it in an honest light? This is another reason why I voice the suspicion that you seem to think you have some insight into the motives of others.

Peace,

Anglian

Anglian · Aug 12, 2008

simonthezealot said:
As I pointed out earlier to Anglian...Show me ONCE where I said you guys worship these things...I haven't!
I have NOT even said Aarons group was worshipping I said they created this as a visible image for our God...
Quit painting your preconcieved notion of my point of view please...Thanks!
I don't answer FALSE acusations

Dear Simon,

if you agree that we are not worshipping icons, exactly what point are you trying to make - except that you don't like it?

The first commandment is not being broken if we are not worshipping icons; so what, apart from your own personal dislike of what we do, are you objecting to?

Peace,

Anglian

Thekla · Aug 12, 2008

simonthezealot said:
Answer then the charge your then leveling on Jeroboam in "Kings" because Jeroboam would never have intended to ask the 10 tribes to cast off their allegiance to the God of David and of Solomon?

wasn't he rebuked by a prophet ?
and his hand was withered when he attempted to arrest the prophet ...

ECF's -Which ones were right?

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Woe those who call evil good + good evil. Is 5:20

have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?

have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?

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have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?

have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?

have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?

Thekla

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have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?

have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?

have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?

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have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?

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