ECF's -Which ones were right?

Anglian said:

except that you are right and everyone else is wrong.

why should you imagine they are.

you seem to have a problem with what we do;

there is no scriptural warrant for your problem,
so while I am sorry you have a problem,
unless you are attempting to tell others

Earlier, you asked whether there was any need for my implication that you have a tendency to confuse the word of Simon with the word of God; this is a perfect example. You think God has a problem - you get such an insight, denied to others, where?

Peace,

Anglian

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Here is why it seems ridiculous to debate with Anglian...No seperation between the issue and the person...I've suggested pretty specifically what my view toward scripture regarding icons is...Anglian in turn rails ME personally, and as shown above most times without warrant

Yarddog said:

How does the golden calf mirror "holy icons"?

The golden calf was an idol, which the people of Israel fashioned for worship. The OT scripture strictly forbids the worship of idols. The pagans worshipped idols as their Gods and the Jews sometimes fell into idol worship.
Icons are not idols and are not worshipped.

Yarddog

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The golden calf was the image of THE unseen God meant to represent YAHWEH ( the God who lead them out of egypt, whom they had a feast day for) These people where worshippiing God through the calf.

Anglian said:

Dear Simon,

Since the only warrant for what you write is your own point of view, it seems difficult not to attribute what you write to you.

If this seems warrant for your attributing motives to me, that would tend to confirm that you claim some insight into what others think.

Peace,

Anglian

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Anglian it does not take a high level of genius to understand PLAIN scripture, just a desire to study. Try setting down the orthodox presupposition and view it in an honest light, and honest doesn't necessarily need to be ones personal POV just a view from the plain reading of scripture.

Uphill Battle said:

that one, I don't get. Reference?

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Here is the U.S. conference of Catholic bishops interpretation..
http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/exodus/exodus32.htm
Then take a read through this as well, i've highlighted some points to help out...

32:1 1 When the people saw that Moses delayed 2 in coming down 3 from the mountain, they 4 gathered around Aaron and said to him, “Get up, 5 make us gods 6 that will go before us. As for this fellow Moses, 7 the man who brought us up from the land of Egypt, we do not know what 8 has become of him!”
32:2 So Aaron said to them, “Break off the gold earrings that are on the ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters, and bring them to me.” 9 32:3 So all 10 the people broke off the gold earrings that were on their ears and brought them to Aaron. 32:4 He accepted the gold 11 from them, 12 fashioned 13 it with an engraving tool, and made a molten calf. 14 Then they said, “These are your gods, 15 O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.”
32:5 When 16 Aaron saw this, 17 he built an altar before it, 18 and Aaron made a proclamation 19 and said, “Tomorrow will be a feast 20 to the Lord.” 32:6 So they got up early on the next day and offered up burnt offerings and brought peace offerings, and the people sat down to eat and drink, 21 and they rose up to play. 22
32:7 The Lord spoke to Moses: “Go quickly, descend, 23 because your 24 people, whom you brought up from the land of Egypt, have acted corruptly. 32:8 They have quickly turned aside 25 from the way that I commanded them – they have made for themselves a molten calf and have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and said, ‘These are your gods, O Israel, which brought you up from the land of Egypt.’”
32:9 Then the Lord said to Moses: “I have seen this people. 26 Look 27 what a stiff-necked people they are! 28 32:10 So now, leave me alone 29 so that my anger can burn against them and I can destroy them, and I will make from you a great nation.”
32:11 But Moses sought the favor 30 of the Lord his God and said, “O Lord, why does your anger burn against your people, whom you have brought out from the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 32:12 Why 31 should the Egyptians say, 32 ‘For evil 33 he led them out to kill them in the mountains and to destroy 34 them from the face of the earth’? Turn from your burning anger, and relent 35 of this evil against your people. 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel your servants, to whom you swore by yourself and told them, ‘I will multiply your descendants 36 like the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken about 37 I will give to your descendants, 38 and they will inherit it forever.’” 32:14 Then the Lord relented over the evil that he had said he would do to his people.
32:15 Moses turned and went down from the mountain with 39 the two tablets of the testimony in his hands. The tablets were written on both sides – they were written on the front and on the back. 32:16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, engraved on the tablets. 32:17 When Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, 40 he said to Moses, “It is the sound of war in the camp!” 32:18 Moses 41 said, “It is not the sound of those who shout for victory, 42 nor is it the sound of those who cry because they are overcome, 43 but the sound of singing 44 I hear.” 45
32:19 When he approached the camp and saw the calf and the dancing, Moses became extremely angry. 46 He threw the tablets from his hands and broke them to pieces at the bottom of the mountain. 47 32:20 He took the calf they had made and burned it in the fire, ground it 48 to powder, poured it out on the water, and made the Israelites drink it. 49
32:21 Moses said to Aaron, “What did this people do to you, that you have brought on them so great a sin?” 32:22 Aaron said, “Do not let your anger burn hot, my lord; 50 you know these people, that they tend to evil. 51 32:23 They said to me, ‘Make us gods that will go before us, for as for this fellow Moses, the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has happened to him.’ 32:24 So I said to them, ‘Whoever has gold, break it off.’ So they gave it 52 to me, and I threw it into the fire, and this calf came out.” 53
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simonthezealot said:

Here is the U.S. conference of Catholic bishops interpretation..
http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/exodus/exodus32.htm
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From there...
The scripture
"This is your God, O Israel, who brought you out of the land of Egypt."
51 On seeing this, Aaron built an altar before the calf and proclaimed, "Tomorrow is a feast of the LORD."

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The commentary
1 [5] The calf . . . a feast of the LORD: from this it is clear that the golden calf was intended as an image, not of a false god, but of the LORD himself, his strength being symbolized by the strength of a young bull. The Israelites, however, had been forbidden to represent the Lord under any visible form. Cf Exodus 20:4.

Thekla said:

Arron says (as written in the above quoted text)

"these are your gods" (think that is pretty plain)

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(s) was a translation addition, if thats what your talking about...
eloyhim 7/8 of the time in scripture is speaking about "God almighty" and this case is no exception as proofed by the "out of egypt" comment as confirmed in Ex 3 and also the following talk of a feast day unto the Lord!

Uphill Battle said:

that one, I don't get. Reference?

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Did I help clarify UB? I jump around a bit I realise...

simonthezealot said:

32:21 Moses said to Aaron, “What did this people do to you, that you have brought on them so great a sin?” 32:22 Aaron said, “Do not let your anger burn hot, my lord; 50 you know these people, that they tend to evil. 51 32:23 They said to me, ‘Make us gods that will go before us, for as for this fellow Moses, the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has happened to him.’ 32:24 So I said to them, ‘Whoever has gold, break it off.’ So they gave it 52 to me, and I threw it into the fire, and this calf came out.” 53
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These were a people whom had little faith and Moses was whom they looked to for the truth of a living God...When he disappeared they needed something else, this is quite clear from the text.

Thekla said:

doesn't the commentary here contradict the plain meaning of the text ("these are your gods") ?

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The "s" was added to the hebrew word eloyhim by the translators, but as you know it is a plural word to start with!