ECF's -Which ones were right?

Rick Otto · Aug 15, 2008

Even the Sisters of Perpetual Responsibility need a break once in awhile.
It was on a greetingcard my youngerof two sisters sent me awhile back. Brings back a lot of learning-to-survive-the-system memories from my RC childhood.

I had to access a file on an RC co-workers computer the other night.
While I was waiting for it to open, I checked the History on his website browser.
This guy will inarticulately defend his Catholic faith with thin-skinned fervor, but explain me why he has the Astrology Page on there & nothing at all to otherwise do with religion or spirituality?
Same thing with my mother-in-law.
Not that there aren't Prots just as bad. No denom is safe from Churchianity.

Montalban · Aug 15, 2008

Philothei said:
Hey I always get those annoying emails...How did you all get so out off topic here?....lol....

Someone said that they could get the same experience from our Liturgy at a picnic.

Philothei said:
BTW Mr. Rick Otto Are you ever bored of your "smoking" Catholic nuns avatar?

You've got to remember he's a Protestant. His whole world view on religion is by comparing his faith to Catholicism

Anglian · Aug 15, 2008

Dear Brothers and Sister in the Lord,

Thus far we have given a good run to the question of icons and the varying views of the ECFs on this subject, seeing, I hope, how and why the 7th Ecumenical Council came to the view which the Orthodox and Catholic Churches hold to this day.

But I wonder whether it might be possible to take this interesting topic in another direction? Although there were, as we have explored, times when the ECFs offered differing perspectives, there were others when they built on the exegetical insights offered by each other to enrich our understanding of the meaning of Holy Scripture. One such topic is what the Orthodox would call theosis, or, in English, divinisation. This is something which I gather is not much explored in the Western tradition (I'd be happy to be corrected if that is not the case), but which is central to Orthodoxy.

The ECFs began the exploration of this topic as a means of addressing the questions raised in the early Church by the meanings of verses such as these:
- Psalm 82:6: 'I said, you are gods and all of you sons of the most high'
- Galatians 3: 26-29: 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
- Romans 8:12-17: 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

The meaning of our being 'gods', and putting on Christ, and being 'sons of God', exercised the ECFs partly because of gnostic claims that they meant we literally became gods - a line taken, I gather, by some today. In St. Athanasius' writings it became part of the explanation of the mystery of the Incarnation, referring back to the Pauline passages about 'kenosis'. As he explains:

The Word 'was made man so that we might be made God' (De Inc 54.3

Clement of Alexandria, Irenaeus, Origen, St. Athanasius and the Cappadocian Fathers, as well as St, Cyril, all wrote on this topic, adding insights and developing an exegesis which has become an important part of the Orthodox tradition.

If there would be any interest in pursuing such a discussion, it might provide us with an opportunity to share something from our various traditions, and to see how the ECFs contribute, together, to a developing understanding.

Would there be an interest here?

peace,

Anglian

Montalban · Aug 15, 2008

I wanted to talk about the Olympics, but I don't know which part to put it on - specifically about how the 'sore-losers' Americans report that they're on top of the medal tally, because they've gone a unique way of calculating it, not by 'gold medals' as other countries do*, but by total medals won.

All around the world:
The Hindustan Times
Britain's "Time"
Australia's Daily Telegraph

and so on. But America has to calculate it so America is on top!

I should also note that Australia is ranked higher under the US system

Yarddog · Aug 15, 2008

Montalban said:
I wanted to talk about the Olympics, but I don't know which part to put it on - specifically about how the 'sore-losers' Americans report that they're on top of the medal tally, because they've gone a unique way of calculating it, not by 'gold medals' as other countries do*, but by total medals won.

All around the world:
The Hindustan Times
Britain's "Time"
Australia's Daily Telegraph

and so on. But America has to calculate it so America is on top!

I should also note that Australia is ranked higher under the US system

Hey, Hey, Hey, haven't you heard that the value of bronze has taken an sharp upturn and has passed gold by five dollars an ounce? Our guys want the bronze.

The US has used the total medal count for years. I remember seeing that when I was young.

Yarddog

Uphill Battle · Aug 15, 2008

Montalban said:
You're not one who sees Jesus in a burrito are you?

nah. I think Jesus only appears in healthy snacks, like Tofurkey.

Well, if you want to have corporate experiential worship without one of the senses experiencing, then I suppose you could just close your eyes. I don't see what the point would be.

I think you missed the point. The point is, if you are unable to worship God without a device, at least in my opinion, you need to examine the place you PUT that device in.

You could quote Hitler in a context to say, for example "Even Hitler was fond of art", or something. However I think you're protesting against people using evidence that supports their case, and I don't follow that drift.

no, no. What I am against is when ECF's are quoted as immutable truth, (something more classically a Catholic practice, rather than EO)

As long as they realise he wasn't 100% Kosher, then I don't see a problem with quoting supporting evidence. That seems to be your beef.

no... It's that they don't seem to notice he isn't 100% Kosher.

It's like "Origen said..." and you say "Oh yes, but he also believed this..." which is irrelevant... to an extent... although I do see you point insofar as them quoting him as an authority

that was the point, not that something he said was irrelevant, jus that we are supposed to believe what is said, soley by whom said it.

the vein I'm given so frequently, is "well, Such and such is an ECF and we trust the ECF, so therefore what the ECF says is true so therefore what I'm arguing is true because of what they said." and I'm like "but you also condemned him as a heretic on certain points. So therefore, we CAN'T trust everything he says as neccessary truth, so therefore your argument is not neccessarily valid because of who said it.

follow?

Yarddog said:
Hey, Hey, Hey, haven't you heard that the value of bronze has taken an sharp upturn and has passed gold by five dollars an ounce? Our guys want the bronze.

The US has used the total medal count for years. I remember seeing that when I was young.

Yarddog

gah. I'm so sick of the Americans when it comes to the olympics.

take for example, the "greatest olympian ever" claptrap about Michael Phelps. Sure, the guy is winning a scad of medals. And sure, he's the most dominant in his field. What, of course, the American media turns a blind eye to, is that in almost every other sport, the athletes don't even have the opportunity to win more than one medal per year. Some two, some even three... but in swimming, he gets to go again and again and again. He gets 4 to 6 times the chances to garner medals for his performances. Take a boxer... he can get no more than one per olympics. His weight class only, one tourney only.

it's a load of American flagwaving garbage.

I digress.

Yarddog · Aug 15, 2008

Uphill Battle said:
gah. I'm so sick of the Americans when it comes to the olympics.

Did you guys even send an Olympic team?

Looks like the Canadians have an "Uphill Battle" to even get as many medals as Michael Phelps has.

it's a load of American flagwaving garbage.

USA, USA, USA,

I couldn't find a flag waving smiley.

Hey Montalban, how do you get that the Aussies are ahead of the US by our system?

USA- 14 gold, 12 silver, 17 bronze total- 43 medals
Australia- 5 gold, 8 silver, 8 bronze, total- 19 medals

My hat is off to the Chinese for a spectacular Opening Ceremony. Their athletes are also dominating the gold so far.

Yarddog

Uphill Battle · Aug 15, 2008

come join us at the winter olympics... wouldn't mind beating you at hockey.... again. and..... again.

Uphill Battle · Aug 15, 2008

another point... Canada, regretfully, is one of the few nations that doesn't fully support their athletes. While Johnny stars and stripes is getting everything paid for, so he can focus soley on training, Little miss maple leaf is going to the gym at 4 in the morning for a few hours, because her shift starts at 8.

Rick Otto · Aug 15, 2008

Hey Montalban, how do you get that the Aussies are ahead of the US by our system?

That ain't exactly what he said. Better retract now or brace for incoming.

BTW, the answer to the OP is Jesus, the earliest & only Church Father.

Yarddog · Aug 15, 2008

Uphill Battle said:
come join us at the winter olympics... wouldn't mind beating you at hockey.... again. and..... again.

Winter Olympics!! They do something in winter

I'm wonder why you didn't say anything about the ONE gold medal we won in hockey, by beating the Russians back about a 100 years ago. (Let it go, pleeease)

BTW, we also beat you guys in total medals in the last Winter Olympics, 25 to 24

Yarddog

Yarddog · Aug 15, 2008

Uphill Battle said:
another point... Canada, regretfully, is one of the few nations that doesn't fully support their athletes. While Johnny stars and stripes is getting everything paid for, so he can focus soley on training, Little miss maple leaf is going to the gym at 4 in the morning for a few hours, because her shift starts at 8.

Just to let you know Ole Johnny Stars and Stripes, doesn't finance their athletes. That comes from corporations and private financing. The US Olympic Committee does give athletes money for medals, $25,000 for gold, $15,000 for silver and $10,000 for bronze.

Yarddog

Uphill Battle · Aug 15, 2008

Yarddog said:
Winter Olympics!! They do something in winter

I'm wonder why you didn't say anything about the ONE gold medal we won in hockey, by beating the Russians back about a 100 years ago. (Let it go, pleeease)

BTW, we also beat you guys in total medals in the last Winter Olympics, 25 to 24

Yarddog

true. Now tally up the number of America athletes sent, compared to the number of Canadians.

Yarddog · Aug 15, 2008

Rick Otto said:
That ain't exactly what he said. Better retract now or brace for incoming.

That's okay, the Aussies need to feel good about something.

BTW, the answer to the OP is Jesus, the earliest & only Church Father.

Definitely the only one that I'll put all my faith in.

Yarddog

Yarddog · Aug 15, 2008

Uphill Battle said:
true. Now tally up the number of America athletes sent, compared to the number of Canadians.

I knew that you'd try to find a way to burst my bubble.

Next you're gonna tell me that you guys only sent the hockey team and they competed in all the other events because you couldn't afford to send any others.

I'm sure they looked really sweet in those female figure skating outfits.

Yarddog · Aug 15, 2008

Uphill Battle said:
true. Now tally up the number of America athletes sent, compared to the number of Canadians.

Hey, I looked it up and we has 211 athletes to Canada's 196. Not much of a difference.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_at_the_2006_Winter_Olympics

Uphill Battle · Aug 15, 2008

accounts for the 1 medal difference, I'd say. We are on par in winter olympics, was the point.

beyond which... we have a pool of 32 million people to get our athletes from.

and you?

Philothei · Aug 15, 2008

Hey Montalban, how do you get that the Aussies are ahead of the US by our system?

USA- 14 gold, 12 silver, 17 bronze total- 43 medals
Australia- 5 gold, 8 silver, 8 bronze, total- 19 medals

My hat is off to the Chinese for a spectacular Opening Ceremony. Their athletes are also dominating the gold so far.

Yarddog

[/QUOTE]

Population approximation" or whatever you can call it... perhaps... Some "unique" aussie formula? Just kidding .... ya....

*ducks to avoid the hit*

In all honesty though I am sure China as the biggest country in population has the most... right?
If we average it out... then Australia sure they have lots for their population.

Greece ....did so purely.... this time...

I do feel bad for them but so many "flanked" the drug testing... which is being disputed... Also we kind of "slandered" the committee so we might get into serious trouble there also... Oh well we are rebels .. what else is new...

Mary of Bethany · Aug 15, 2008

Uphill Battle said:
come join us at the winter olympics... wouldn't mind beating you at hockey.... again. and..... again.

Mmmmm. I love hockey. The 2002 Canadian team winning gold in Salt Lake City, against the U.S. Brett Hull and Mike Modano and Jeremy Roenick against Joey Nieuwendyk and Ryan Smyth and Joe Sakic. Watching Nieuwy holding his little girl during the medal ceremony.

Mary

Rick Otto · Aug 15, 2008

Hockey was invented when a bunch of guys showed up for a fight & a game broke out.

ECF's -Which ones were right?

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