Where does scripture say that baptism is necessary for salvation? Did the thief on the cross got to paradise? Was he baptized?
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Where does scripture say that baptism is necessary for salvation? Did the thief on the cross got to paradise? Was he baptized?Scripture says there are different roles in the church. Paul wasn't sent to baptize. Scripture says baptism is necessary for salvation and nothing you posted refutes that.
What, that the Catholic Church at some point taught that Sacred Scripture is a thing to be detested ,loathed, cursed, and consigned to damnation or destruction? I stopped believing that kind of Chick-tract nonsense once I stopped learning about Catholic belief from folks who had no idea what they were talking about.Use to believe? Your profile indicates you still believe.
This is taken from : https://carm.org/is-baptism-necessary-salvationJohn 3:5, Titus 3:5, and Acts 2:38 all teach the necessity of baptism for salvation.
I take it you don't have any logical rebuttal to my argument.Applying your "logic" to the Pharisees of Jesus' day and you can see how baseless it is to assume truth/authority above God's word, from those assigned to be leaders of the church. The Pharisees failed miserably at this and Jesus called them out for forcing their traditions on the Church.
The Jews were responsible for giving us the OT. And the NT credits them for this. In the same chapter Paul says this does not guarantee that they persist in or always speak the truth.
You Catholics are grasping at straws because you can't prove what you believe. You think we must prove scripture is true. Again, look at Jesus' teaching. He did not have to prove the OT. He proved that he was fulfilled prophecy in the OT. God's people did not question scripture. They followed it because they followed God.
It is. Scripture never directly says that Scripture is God's Word. In point of fact, the only Logos directly called the Logos is Christ, not the Bible.Opinion??? Wha.....???
What, that the Catholic Church at some point taught that Sacred Scripture is a thing to be detested ,loathed, cursed, and consigned to damnation or destruction? I stopped believing that kind of Chick-tract nonsense once I stopped learning about Catholic belief from folks who had no idea what they were talking about.
But that's not relevant to the topic. I answered the challenge of the OP, and proved that either there is a source of incontrovertible truth outside of Sacred Scripture, or else that we can't really be guaranteed of knowing what the true canon of Scripture is. So far no one's even pretended to rebut the logic of my argument.
That's probably because we aren't really "guaranteed of knowing" what the canon of Scripture is.But that's not relevant to the topic. I answered the challenge of the OP, and proved that either there is a source of incontrovertible truth outside of Sacred Scripture, or else that we can't really be guaranteed of knowing what the true canon of Scripture is. So far no one's even pretended to rebut the logic of my argument.
This is taken from : https://carm.org/is-baptism-necessary-salvation
It explains, quite easily, the fact that baptism is not necessary for salvation.
The reason baptism is not necessary for salvation is that we are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8) and not by faith and a ceremony (Rom. 4:1-11). You see, a religious ceremony is a set of activities or forms peformed by someone. In the Bible circumcision was a ceremony where one person performed a religious rite on another person. Likewise, baptism is also a ceremony where one person performs a religious rite on another person; but, we are saved by faith alone, and anything else we do, including ceremonies, will not help.
If we are saved by faith, then we are saved by faith when we believe and not when we get baptized, otherwise, we are not saved by faith. Furthermore, if baptism is necessary for salvation, then anyone who receives Christ on his deathbed in a hospital and who also believes Jesus is God in the flesh, who died and rose from the dead for his sins, etc., would go to hell if he doesn't get baptized before he died. This would mean that we were not justified by faith because if we were, then the person would be saved. Also, if baptism is necessary for salvation, then all babies who die go to hell since they weren't baptized. Remember, when someone says that baptism is necessary, there can be no exceptions--otherwise it isn't necessary.
So you also hold that an assuredly (if conditionally) infallible magisterium is essential for determination and assurance of Truth (including writings and men being of God) and to fulfill promises of Divine presence, providence of Truth, and preservation of faith, and authority. (Jn. 14:16,26; 15:26; 16:13; Mt. 16:18; Lk. 10:16)\
And that being the historical instruments and stewards of Divine revelation (oral and written) means that Rome is that assuredly infallible magisterium. Thus any who knowingly dissent from the latter must be in rebellion to God.
Does this fairly represent what you hold to or in what way does it differ?
Scripture is the written Tradition so of course Tradition includes it. Christians consider both to be equal, unlike most sola scripturists who elevate their man-made traditions above scripture.
I consider God's word to be the highest authority whether it is written or unwritten.
This is taken from : https://carm.org/is-baptism-necessary-salvation
It explains, quite easily, the fact that baptism is not necessary for salvation.
The reason baptism is not necessary for salvation is that we are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8) and not by faith and a ceremony (Rom. 4:1-11). You see, a religious ceremony is a set of activities or forms peformed by someone. In the Bible circumcision was a ceremony where one person performed a religious rite on another person. Likewise, baptism is also a ceremony where one person performs a religious rite on another person; but, we are saved by faith alone, and anything else we do, including ceremonies, will not help.
If we are saved by faith, then we are saved by faith when we believe and not when we get baptized, otherwise, we are not saved by faith. Furthermore, if baptism is necessary for salvation, then anyone who receives Christ on his deathbed in a hospital and who also believes Jesus is God in the flesh, who died and rose from the dead for his sins, etc., would go to hell if he doesn't get baptized before he died. This would mean that we were not justified by faith because if we were, then the person would be saved. Also, if baptism is necessary for salvation, then all babies who die go to hell since they weren't baptized. Remember, when someone says that baptism is necessary, there can be no exceptions--otherwise it isn't necessary.
So you know that some of the word of God existed outside Scripture because wholly inspired Scripture includes some of it
thus or because non-inspired men in the church said that even something as sketchy as the Assumption said it was the word of God?
So, do you rely on "inspired" men. If so, how are you to tell the difference?No. The reverse is true. I know some of the word of God exists in scripture because the tradition of the church says it does. If scripture wasn't part of the church's tradition, I would not accept it.
I do not rely on non-inspired men for doctrine. That's what Protestants do.
Do you know the difference between one authority and ALL AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND EARTH? The authority to "forgive" sins is from God and given to the Church. Don't be so simple minded to infer that all authority in heaven and earth that was given to Jesus was also given to any man. Does the Church command the weather? Does the Church do the miracles that Jesus and the apostles did? Does the Church continue in creating scripture?Jesus clearly gave the Church his authority.
John 20
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
Luke 10:16
"Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me."
Matt 16
18And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Why don't you just say what doctrine you infer from the text instead of me saying something I don't agree with. The OP begs one to prove another truth besides scripture. You wish to just throw out a few scripture verses and think your case proven. Then, when one makes a point that Peter was not inerrant, you just ignore that argument because you can't get that scripture to agree with what your doctrine is pushing.In other words, you can't answer these two questions:
Why did Jesus change Simon's name to Rock?
Why did Jesus give Simon alone the keys to the Kingdom?
I already had a thread on the supreme authority of scripture. Scripture won.Scripture is incontrovertibly true = this cannot be proven or held to the same standard of proof you are asking of others.
Solo Scriptura is probably what you are advocating, where tradition is lower than Biblical authority.
So, do you rely on "inspired" men. If so, how are you to tell the difference?
I answered the challenge of the OP, and proved that either there is a source of incontrovertible truth outside of Sacred Scripture, or else that we can't really be guaranteed of knowing what the true canon of Scripture is. So far no one's even pretended to rebut the logic of my argument.
Your argument is as simple minded as:I take it you don't have any logical rebuttal to my argument.
Where does scripture say that baptism is necessary for salvation?
Did the thief on the cross got to paradise?
Was he baptized?
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