How astute of an observation. Tell me does the OT teach that we should fill ourselves with God's word? And who is the Word? Maybe there is an understanding of the Lord's Supper that agrees with the OT.
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How astute of an observation. Tell me does the OT teach that we should fill ourselves with God's word? And who is the Word? Maybe there is an understanding of the Lord's Supper that agrees with the OT.Christ references Old Testament stories, but he also teaches ones that come directly from him. There is nothing in the Old Testament that overtly says you must eat the flesh and drink the blood of God to inherit eternal life.
I'm not going to argue about things that will require a lot of depth to address, because that will hijack this thread way off topic. If you want to discuss Petrine supremacy, I would be happy to, but not in this thread. Make another one.
You are correct it is off topic. I shall remember that the next time I see a response invoking the 40,000 Protestant churches.
Not really. I had hoped that there was general consensus on points 1,2 and 3 in the OP. I guess it is a lot easier to attack SS than to defend another source of incontrovertible truth.The OP is about the authority of Holy Spirit Inspired Scriptures. The transcendent standard the Church fathers used to test truth claims and refute heretics.
We must be careful of how we take the context of scripture. This passage, you posted, Mathew 18:17, is but a portion of the long line of people that you are to contact if you are done wrong by someone.
In other words, if your neighbor takes your wheel barrow and doesn't give it back, you should ask him. If that doesn't work you should get some buddies and the four of you approach him. If that still doesn't work you are to take it to the elders of the church.
This is NOT a passage that instructs us to "listen to the church" as apposed to "listening to the scripture", The Word of God, as they are written.
This does not put the word of the church above the Word of God.
One might take note of the fact that Matthew 18:17 was not written to The Church, the Body of Christ. The Greek affords the meaning "a gathering of citizens," "assembly of the people," and "any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance," in context, the Jews of that day.
If the Bible is not true..... we are to be pitied.
1 Corinthians 15:12-19New International Version (NIV)
The Resurrection of the Dead
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
Was the doctrine of the Trinity a church proclamation? Divine revelation?
No. Look back at the arguments for the Trinity. The church fathers used Holy Scriptures to argue their points.
God's words are true, written or not. God still reveals his truths to us through the Holy Spirit.
Now here is the tricky part. How do you know that when a man speaks, it is a true revelation from God/"unwritten word of God" or as Jesus said, it is "merely human rules"?
Matthew 15:3-9 The point of SS is that it is the only source of incontrovertible truth. That means we don't have to question or guess to its authenticity and truth. There may be other truths out there. Traditions may have merits. But, these details must be tested against scripture and are not necessary for salvation.
You mince words, playing a game that your traditions are God's word. Prove it. So far none has.
Samir was just throwing out a red herring, because he's got nothing.
It is impossible to prove EVERY WORD OF SCRIPTURE, so I don't have to prove anything with traditions. Does one really think this is going to end well for followers of such a mindset?
So, if the Jews don't accept that Jesus was the Son of God, does that mean that He isn't?
They certainly believe in a Messiah. They are just still waiting for Him. There eyes will be opened and the saving of the 144,000 will become a proven prophecy.
Jesus is the co-creator of the worlds under his jurisdiction. God the Father is the creator of the universe. Jesus is a Son, as a Son he is the Father of his creation, not the entire creation of his Father. When Christ was on earth mans understanding of the history of the earth and the size of the universe was not understood. Jesus worked within the framework of that which we could understand. We know more now.Jesus created the universe.... thought I spelled that out..
Genesis 1:1 says that “God created the heavens and the earth.” Then, Colossians 1:16 gives the added detail that God created “all things” through Jesus Christ. The plain teaching of Scripture, therefore, is that Jesus is the Creator of the universe.
Paul did not seem to think it a priority; he baptised only a handful of people and was glad he did not do many.Is it necessary for salvation?
No, because tradition is not God breathed nor revealed by the Holy Spirit. If it were it would be called Scripture.....So scripture is true because you believe it is true?
If faith is proof, then my proof that Tradition is true is my faith.
This is not about "belief"; this is about true believers, the Body of Christ. It is not necessary to be part of a particular denomination to part of the Body of Christ."Belief" is completely useless by itself.
I cut your replacement theology statement as it is not pertinent to the discussion.The Holy Spirit is not just a thing you can possess, the Holy Spirit is God himself, and he works through his Church,......
You didn't answer the question.Religions have scripture. The true religion has true scripture. You look for a way out of defending your belief of traditions.Sacred Scripture is a collection of ancient documents. How do you know which ancient documents are what they claim to be, and which ones truly belong in the collection? For example, how do you know that Paul's letter to the Hebrews was actually written by Paul?
Learn from the Old Testament. God wants us to learn of him and his ways. He from the beginning of "religion", with the Jews, gave books. The people of God followed these books and took them to be true because they were followers of God. The words in them do not have to be proven.
Learn from what Jesus said of the religious leaders of his day and their traditions.
Matthew 15:2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!” 3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 6 hey are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:Now Jesus did not say disregard all the traditions/teachings of their leaders. He said to test them against the word. Now how could they be tested against the word unless it was established what the word was? God has protected his word in the Old Testament and he has protected it in the New Testament. If you doubt the Bible, you doubt God.
8 “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’
As for the hypocritical comment, tell that to Jesus. Jesus said to test "human rules" against the word, for they are human if they are not contained in scripture.
Actually the Holy Spirit did all this; He simply acted through men and this was accomplished over a period of centuries.1 Timothy 3:15 tells us that pillar and foundation of truth is the Church. The Church uses the scriptures. The Church compiled the scriptures, decided which ones were actually scripture, and also interprets them. This is part of Holy Tradition and this is guided by the Holy Spirit.
In a sense, you don't know. Just as you don't "know" that I exist.Sacred Scripture is a collection of ancient documents. How do you know which ancient documents are what they claim to be, and which ones truly belong in the collection? For example, how do you know that Paul's letter to the Hebrews was actually written by Paul?
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