Early Writtings

JM · Jan 8, 2005

Can we trust the writtings of the early Christians? If we were to save the writtings of modern Christians wouldn't they be tainted by modern ideas, theologies and false teaches? Who collected the writtings and did they have a vested interested in what should and shouldn't be saved?

FreeinChrist · Jan 8, 2005

The early writings were collected over time. Many were just letters to another Christian. Some were meant to be encouraging. Others were in response to heretic types (often gnostics) infiltrating churches. They aren't scripture, and are often misquoted in an effort to promote a view.
Others have been found to be just plain fakes.....written for the monetary benefit of selling a relic.

A good online source for finding the writings of the early church is:
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/

I have to click on the "[v2]" to get tot he writings listed.
www.crosswalk.com also has writings but is not in the best format.

Peter · Jan 14, 2005

I would venture to say the streetpreacher is very right, including his own writings.
It is this very doubt that pushes us not away from, but towards Christ's very body, the Church. For where one man might be in error, the Church, the mystical union of man and Christ, the "fullness of Him who fills all," the true Body of Christ, cannot go into error. And it is through His body that we, who are also His body, can trust what has been sorted out regarding the extra-Biblical writings of the early fathers.

Peace.

Peter

JM · Jan 14, 2005

Peter said:
I would venture to say the streetpreacher is very right, including his own writings.
It is this very doubt that pushes us not away from, but towards Christ's very body, the Church. For where one man might be in error, the Church, the mystical union of man and Christ, the "fullness of Him who fills all," the true Body of Christ, cannot go into error. And it is through His body that we, who are also His body, can trust what has been sorted out regarding the extra-Biblical writings of the early fathers.

Peace.

Peter

As for the Church...

The universal Church, which may be called invisible (in respect of the internal work of the Spirit and truth of grace) consists of the entire number of the elect, all those who have been, who are, or who shall be gathered into one under Christ, Who is the Head. This universal Church is the wife, the body, the fullness of Him Who fills all in all. Hebrews 12:23; Colossians 1:18; Ephesians 1:10, 22, 23; Ephesians 5:23, 27, 32;

Your post was great, thank you.

Peace

Gold Dragon · Jan 14, 2005

Street Preacher said:
Can we trust the writtings of the early Christians?

What about it are you asking if we can trust? Can we trust if they were written by early Christians? Can we trust if they were written by who they claim to have been written? Every ancient document, including the bible carries such questions.

If you are asking if they can be trusted as being scripture, they obviously were not chosen to be so during the 400s when the canon was solidifying.

If you are asking if they can be trusted as being true, then I would say that they were absolutely true to whoever wrote them.

Street Preacher said:
If we were to save the writtings of modern Christians wouldn't they be tainted by modern ideas, theologies and false teaches?

You make that sound so negative. Every document is influenced by the ideas, theologies and teachings of the time of their writing, including the Bible. We need to be especially aware of this when we interpret the Bible or else we arrive at incorrect interpretations because we impose our own ideas, theologies, teachings on writings that didn't have those suppositions.

Street Preacher said:
Who collected the writtings and did they have a vested interested in what should and shouldn't be saved?

The ones that are preserved are the ones Christians and other collectors of Christian writings felt were important enough to be copied.

JM · Jan 17, 2005

I'm asking, can we trust the early writings as a whole to gives us a clear understanding of what the 'Church' taught? It doesn't matter anyways, belief must be Biblical not historical.

Carl the Copt · Jan 18, 2005

Street Preacher said:
I'm asking, can we trust the early writings as a whole to gives us a clear understanding of what the 'Church' taught? It doesn't matter anyways, belief must be Biblical not historical.

YES we can trust the early writings as a whole. If we do not then we have to question why we hold to the text that they felt was Holy that is the New Testament. We can have a hard time trying to explain that when the time comes. If we as Christians want only to read what we moderns in our enlightenment have to say, then why do we read the Bible?
Carl the Copt

Gold Dragon · Jan 18, 2005

Street Preacher said:
I'm asking, can we trust the early writings as a whole to gives us a clear understanding of what the 'Church' taught? It doesn't matter anyways, belief must be Biblical not historical.

Most Christians read about how other respected Christians live, interpret the bible, relate with God, etc. For many evangelicals, it is contemporaries who we can relate to like Josh McDowell, Billy Graham, John MacArthur, Bill Hybels, etc. For the early church it was Clement of Rome, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Polycarp, Augustine, etc. In later times it was John Calvin, John Wesley, Charles Spurgeon, etc.

Many of the earlier Christian writings still have relevance to the questions and problems that we face today and their thoughts and insights are valuable for consideration. And because of their age, they have strongly influenced many of the foundational Christian beliefs that we hold today. Understanding the context of those writings can help us understand why we believe what we believe.

JM · Jan 18, 2005

Gold Dragon said:
Understanding the context of those writings can help us understand why we believe what we believe.

AMEN!

JM · Jan 22, 2005

Carl the Copt said:
YES we can trust the early writings as a whole. If we do not then we have to question why we hold to the text that they felt was Holy that is the New Testament. We can have a hard time trying to explain that when the time comes. If we as Christians want only to read what we moderns in our enlightenment have to say, then why do we read the Bible?
Carl the Copt

I don't believe we can trust them to establish doctrine for a couple of reasons. Many times they lack clear meaning of the teaching they wrote about, they didn't understand the details of what they believed (example the Trinity) and they didn't have complete Scriptures (in many cases) on which to draw from.

Bizzlebin Imperatoris · Jan 23, 2005

Certainly not all early letters and writings were inspired, but some were. Some of the very same ancient authors helped canonize the Bible, so they certainly weren't devoid of truth by any means. But while many of the writings can help shed light on certain topics, only that which was officially recognized by the Church through the Holy Spirit is completely understood to be valid.

JM · Jan 24, 2005

Bizzlebin Imperatoris said:
Certainly not all early letters and writings were inspired, but some were. Some of the very same ancient authors helped canonize the Bible, so they certainly weren't devoid of truth by any means. But while many of the writings can help shed light on certain topics, only that which was officially recognized by the Church through the Holy Spirit is completely understood to be valid.

Ahhhh, the question still rages...

Did the Church define canon or was the canon revealed!

Thank you for your time friend, God bless.

Bizzlebin Imperatoris · Jan 24, 2005

Street Preacher said:
Did the Church define canon or was the canon revealed!

I think this question is false dichotomy. It is like asking "Did man invent the internet or was it revealed by God?" As in the case of scripture, it was revealed by God unto man who made it. Both are true simultaneously.

prodromos · Jan 25, 2005

Street Preacher said:
It doesn't matter anyways, belief must be Biblical not historical.

I believe it must be both, otherwise the church could be teaching something completely different today from what it taught in the first century. There is only one truth, and it was the same then as it is now, yet there are any number of "bible based" churches today which teach different things from each other while using the same bible to determine what they teach. With the anchor of Tradition, the teaching of the Church, you are held safe in harbour. Once you cast off that anchor, however, you begin to drift and could be carried into very dangerous waters. Witness the heresies which threatened the church in the first centuries.

John.

raphink · Jan 25, 2005

Well first of all : what do you guys mean by early christian writings? It seems you are only talking about the apocrypha and writings of the fathers of the Church. To me, early christian writings include what we call the New Testament today, as the texts from the NT were written between the middle of the first century and the middle of the second century.
The fact that some texts were chosen to be part of the NT doesn't mean the other texts are totally wrong. It is obvious that the Roman Catholic Church wouldn't recognize and use texts written by communities it had been fighting or even exterminating (such as the gnostic communities), still some of these texts, though having led to non-christian views, can be very reliable. Fathers of the Church such as Irenea of Lyon quoted some apocryph texts they used to own. It was mostly to criticize them, but not only for this.

I do think actually that every text has to be put in its historico-cultural context, be it biblical or not. The letters of Paul can only be fully understood and interpreted if you remember that he was writing to some specific communities and if you keep in mind the context of the foundation of these communities. If there is no study of the historico-cultural context of the epistles, it mostly leads to fundamentalism and integrism.

Bizzlebin Imperatoris said:
I think this question is false dichotomy. It is like asking "Did man invent the internet or was it revealed by God?" As in the case of scripture, it was revealed by God unto man who made it. Both are true simultaneously.

What do you think was revealed? The Bible? or the decision to make some texts part of the canon?

Bizzlebin Imperatoris · Jan 26, 2005

raphink said:
What do you think was revealed? The Bible? or the decision to make some texts part of the canon?

The specific books to be included, and by that the Bible itself, was revealed. Both

Radagast · Jan 26, 2005

Street Preacher said:
Can we trust the writtings of the early Christians? ... Who collected the writtings and did they have a vested interested in what should and shouldn't be saved?

Well, the Church felt that they were worth keeping...

-- Radagast

raphink · Jan 26, 2005

Bizzlebin Imperatoris said:
The specific books to be included, and by that the Bible itself, was revealed. Both

To me both were inspired : the texts are the inspired word of God, and the Church was inspired in keeping these texts. But there is no revelation (except for the book of Revelation), or I am a muslim and not a Christian (muslims believe the Quran was revealed, but "traditional" Christians believe the Bible is the inspired word of God - not talking about the fondamentalists movements)

Bizzlebin Imperatoris · Jan 27, 2005

raphink said:
To me both were inspired : the texts are the inspired word of God, and the Church was inspired in keeping these texts. But there is no revelation (except for the book of Revelation), or I am a muslim and not a Christian (muslims believe the Quran was revealed, but "traditional" Christians believe the Bible is the inspired word of God - not talking about the fondamentalists movements)

You forget the books of Jeremiah, Daniel, Isaiah, and so forth. All have prophecies that were fulfilled; certainly revelation. But, really, inspiration is just another form of revelation.

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