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Dr. Dino (Hovind) exposed?

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Vance

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For those who seem to swallow the claims of this "doctor", please read the following link:

http://members.cox.net/ardipithecus/evol/lies/lie001.html

especially the bottom, where one Creationist withdrew his claim when shown it to be in serious error, but Hovind sticks with it.

It is exactly this type of action which caused even AIG to all but disown him and call his varacity into question.
 
Yes Creationist on occassion misquote a source, but a rare typo or such hardly proves creation to be false & Evolution true. As for outright lies & deciet the history of Evolutions proponents are legion. All said & done Evolution is a silly & unscientific theory which defies scientific inquiry.
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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obediah001 said:
Yes Creationist on occassion misquote a source, but a rare typo or such hardly proves creation to be false & Evolution true.

No. It proves Hovind's attitude to truth is not what it might be though.

As for outright lies & deciet the history of Evolutions proponents are legion.

Really? Some examples would be nice.

All said & done Evolution is a silly & unscientific theory which defies scientific inquiry.

Nonsense. It makes lots of predictions that we can test. I could give you some examples if I thought you'd actually follow them up.
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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As for examples of Evolutionary frauds well all the supposed misssing links which have been claimed i nthe past have been proven documented frauds or wildly fanciful. e.g. Nebraska Man turned out to be created soley from hogs teeth; in recent months a # of claimed discoveries were shown to be frauds, the one from China, forget title; or the life from mars rock ultimately a complete hoax. There are books written full of the frauds,....... how about hekel's fraud, which by the way is still used in school texts despiteits proven fraud status. comeon now you can find all these facts, LOOK!
 
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notto

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Can you provide reference to any textbooks that show hekels' drawings in anything other than a historical discussion?

The main difference with these claims is that mainstream science no longer uses exposed frauds or falsified claims. Creationists (and especially Hovind) continue to use various claims even after they have been shown to be incorrect beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Who do you think exposes the frauds in science related to the things you discuss above? It certainly wasn't any creationists.

Every mainstream scientists agress that the things that you mention are frauds and no longer uses them.

Why is their so much disareement between creationists on what is good evidence and what has been falsified.

AIG has thorough investigated the "man tracks" and has come to the conclusion that they are not what other creationists claim. They also have a great list of other evidence not to use.

Why do creationists like hovind continue to use them. He is shown to be wrong and continues to use bad evidence as if nobody will notice.

This is the differene between mainstream science and religious hucksters like hovind.
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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I'm familiar with the claims, but shall we examine them?

Nebraska man. Not a fraud, but an honest mistake. And who discovered it was a mistake? The same evil lying evolutionists who discovered the tooth.

"The one from China" - you mean Archaeoraptor? Yes, a hoax. By a chinese farmer to make money, not by evil lying evolutionists. It was the evil lying evolutionists who actually showed the fossil was a hoax, or more accurately, a composite of two very real and very interesting bird/reptile transitionals.

"Life from Mars rock" - again, not a hoax. Turns out what some scientists thought might turn out to be primitive organisms weren't. How is this a hoax?

Haeckel - yes, he did forge his diagrams. Could you give me the title of a modern text book that uses his drawings as evidence for evolution? Hardly likely, since Haeckel's hypothesis, that embryos recapitulate the adult forms of their evolutionary history, is not one held by modern evolutionary biologists.

Do you have any more half remembered stories of hoaxes?
 
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As for the specific textbooks I have seen them myself & as said all but a couple to date have been proven frauds, others to follow. I do not have the time to dig out the specific texts. Why would we need a historical discusion of a fraud in a elementary school? Though you claim mainstrean sience nolonger uses proven frauds, you could not deny they have benefitted form them by molding public perception. By poiting then out Hovind is making a case for tghe pattern of deception of the Evolution supporters. Sorry I saw a debate this year at Rutgers where the proffesor did use proven frauds as evidence. Hovind has other videos where other proffesors do likewise! GET THEM & SEE FOR SELF; then stop making this claim! AIG is one ministry I do not trust; as for the man tracks they were dug out by a dozer while the scientists watched & they still denied what they saw. go figure! AIG is an enigma in Christian circles for me. Hovind has an excelent wittness you are proff of that as you chaff at his wittness & call him names as well as attack his character. He clearly is doing a mighty work!
 
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Vance

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Yes, if it was just a few typos or mistakes, that would be one thing, but Hovind's case is VERY different.

And the difference, generally, between the mistakes of secular science and "creation" science is very simply drawn. While there have been a few intentional hoaxes (Piltdown Man, etc), most of the errors are honest and readily acknowledged when pointed out. In fact, it is almost always the secular scientific community itself which points it out! Scientific study creates a growing body of knowledge and concepts and, as a general body, they recognize this growth as part of the process. Theories are expounded, attacked, tested and critiqued. Those which survive this grueling process over a period of time are given a certain degree of respect and, at some point, are deemed sound enough to build upon.

Creationists, however, tend to adopt arguments not based on their tenebility, but on whether they support their preconceived belief (ie, a young earth). They will then hold on to these LONG after they have been refuted beyond a reasonable doubt simply because they have too much invested in them. AIG finally came out with a list of arguments it will not use anymore when it became outright embarrasing. The list is still too short, of course, and they held on to them WAY too long, but it is a step in the right direction.

Hovind, in response to this very list, said he will continue with these arguments regardless of whether they have been proven false. At one point he actually makes reference to the fact that he has these arguments in his books, seminar materials and videos and asks AIG whether they expect him to trash all of these and redo them. The correct answer, of course, is yes, he should. But he won't.
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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Not really. There is mounds and mounds of non-fraud evidence, and all you can point at is a handful of cases, only two of which are actually fraud. It's the mounds of real evidence that mould public perception.

By poiting then out Hovind is making a case for tghe pattern of deception of the Evolution supporters.

No pattern. The main pattern shown is that real science, evolutionary science, is pretty good at spotting and exposing frauds, as in Haeckel and Archaeoraptor, the only two real frauds on your list.

Sorry I saw a debate this year at Rutgers where the proffesor did use proven frauds as evidence. Hovind has other videos where other proffesors do likewise!

And what frauds would these be? You saw the video - what fraudulent evidence was the professor relying on?

GET THEM & SEE FOR SELF; then stop making this claim!

What claim? That frauds are occasionally perpetrated, and exposed invariably by the mainstream scientific community?

AIG is one ministry I do not trust; as for the man tracks they were dug out by a dozer while the scientists watched & they still denied what they saw. go figure!

Cite

AIG is an enigma in Christian circles for me.

Because it doesn't promote the exact line you want it to?

Hovind has an excelent wittness you are proff of that as you chaff at his wittness & call him names as well as attack his character. He clearly is doing a mighty work!

He is a liar. If that's your idea of mighty work, then I'm sure you know enough scripture to know who the mightiest worker must be. We know he's a liar; the link in the OP showed that Hovind's claim that parts of the same mammoth date to different dates IS A LIE
 
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The public ( masses) are not moved by mounds of evidence, that is a laughable statement. Look at Bush molding public opioin in the media & shredding the Constitution in the same breath! I pointed out a couple which came to the top of my mind there are literally dozens plus more. And as said get some of Hovids debates with the proffesors you will have plenty of evidence to deal with; I do not need to dig the quotes sources he has done it for you. I said AIG is an enigma in MY CIRCLE. They attack other christians which is unscriptural itself at least in the way they do so. I think the former UNESCO leader Huxley's response to why Evolution became so poular is insightful, he said " because the idea of god interfered with our sexual morays." what candor & honesty here; it clearly aint science that promotes Evolution, but an ideology which desoises the God of the Bible. There are many other quotes by scientists which are quite revealing in this vein.
 
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Vance

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Hovind is such an embarrassment to "Creation Science" that I have often wondered if he was actually an atheist who realized the best way to destroy the Creation Science movement was to pretend to be one and then present the case just as Hovind does now (and make a good living in the mean time). If so, it is working. While he is convincing to those who want to hear what he is telling them, he is a joke to everyone else.

This means that:

1. He reaches no one new with the message of Creation Science.

2. He undermines (nay, destroys) the efforts of the rest of Creation Science to reach those who are skeptical.
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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Well, you'd better start telling us about them.


They don't. They point out daft arguments that bring creationism into disrepute.


Really? Funny thing is, creationists keep using this quote but no-one can actually tell when or where he's alleged to have said it. There's a pattern here.

There are many other quotes by scientists which are quite revealing in this vein.

Do share them with us. Some of them might even be in context.
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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And I'll find it from the mouth of a liar? I don't think so. The truth about creation is written in the very creation itself - and it screams evolution loud and clear.
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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So why doesn't he correct the mammoth error?

Why on his website does it say that scientists use C14 for dates in the millions of years range?

All untrue.
 
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