Doubts about praying to the saints

Alfred M · May 5, 2004

I think Rick said it all very well...our God is a God of the living, not of the dead. Therefore the prayers we ask are from those simply that have gone away physically from this world and their history has called the Church to proclaim them as Saints. As far as who is in Heaven and who is not...how could I know this about a living churchmember that I asked to pray for me?

It is all about faith. Pray for your soul to be quiet and let the love of God be what rules in your heart...then all prayer will be pure and pleasing to God...and the doubts will soon be vanquished.

In the love of our Saviour,
Alfred, a lowly sinner

p.s.- please pray for me...I just got out of the hospital for an irregular heart beat that devloped very suddenly...not life threatening, but is sure to cause a big lifestyle change. Thanks.

elittlebit_curry · May 6, 2004

Thank you all so much for your edifying words!

I too have always struggled with what our relationship with the Saints is supposed to be (not that I've had much experience at all; we don't say a whole lot about saints in the Anglican church to which I belong, though we do recognize them), but you (especially through the Early Church Fathers quoted) have heartily convinced me of how wonderful a thing it is.

As long as one remains firmly focused on Christ, I don't see how one could fall into some sort of heretical worship of a saint, especially since they themselves are so firmly rooted in adoration of Him.

Again, thank you!

Elizabeth

Eusebios · May 6, 2004

elittlebit_curry said:
Thank you all so much for your edifying words!

I too have always struggled with what our relationship with the Saints is supposed to be (not that I've had much experience at all; we don't say a whole lot about saints in the Anglican church to which I belong, though we do recognize them), but you (especially through the Early Church Fathers quoted) have heartily convinced me of how wonderful a thing it is.

As long as one remains firmly focused on Christ, I don't see how one could fall into some sort of heretical worship of a saint, especially since they themselves are so firmly rooted in adoration of Him.

Again, thank you!

Elizabeth

Elizabeth,
Hello and welcome to TAW! Thank you for your kind post. Feel free to drop by any time with questions and great compliments like this one!
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.

Axion · May 7, 2004

Daedalus said:
Basically I explained how you pray for a friend and how saints do that for you, but he asked me what's the pourpose for that if God can hear you.

So what is the purpose of asking a friend or relative to pray for you if God can hear you? Do you see? By the reasoning above, asking anyone else to pray for you is pointless. Yet we all know it has great value.

In James 5. 14-16 we are told to get the Elders of the Church to pray for us and to annoint us when we are sick. Reading on, we find:
James 5: 16-18 " ...The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. Elijah was a human being like us; yet he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain upon the land. Then he prayed again, and the sky gave rain and the earth produced its fruit."

How many of us know an Elijah? But there are plenty of Elijah's in heaven willing to join us in prayer.

Anyway, I used all sorts of arguments, I even made an analogy -- what if someone that wants your help has done something wrong and is ashamed to come and ask you first came and asked your mother, then you would be more inclined to help him.
The truth is I can't see how that can apply to God.

We shouldn't pray to Saints because we are ashamed to go directly to God. We should pray to have their help and assistance in our problems and in our happy times and in our worship of God. Just like in the membership of a family. We share all things together.

I know we end up with "St. .... pray for me" but I started that only recently (!!!!), I used to pray to saints and the Virgin Mary just as I prayed to God -- that is a sin.

If your prayer to saints includes worship of them as deity, then that is indeed a sin. However it is no sin to talk to, and share with our fellow members of Christ's body who are in heaven, any of our problems and joys, and even to thank them and praise them.

1 Cor 12.12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ..
24 But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honour to the inferior part, 25 that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.

Do Christians cease to be part of the Body of Christ when they are in heaven? Or in a loving family, does the father get angry when a son talks to his mother, sisters and brothers?

Matthias · May 8, 2004

I am still not satisfied with these devious doubts.

statrei · Jun 25, 2004

That argument does not hold, Therese. John 21:23 is an undeniable example that the early church got something dreadfully wrong just after Jesus left them. There is no reason to believe that the men who followed Jesus and wrote the Bible were imbued with infallibility of perception.

Darius

thereselittleflower said:
Also, do you think the first Christians would have gotten it all wrong right after Christ?

Look into the Catacoombs . . they are full of thousands of prayers inscribed to those who were martyred . . tons of evidence that this was the faithful teaching of the Apostolic Church . .

Peace in Him!

Iacobus · Jun 25, 2004

statrei said:
That argument does not hold, Therese. John 21:23 is an undeniable example that the early church got something dreadfully wrong just after Jesus left them. There is no reason to believe that the men who followed Jesus and wrote the Bible were imbued with infallibility of perception.

Darius

How is John 21:23 proof that anything went wrong? Is it because John died before the second coming? Read verses 23 and 24 carefully. Essentially, what Jesus was saying was "what's it to you?"

More troubling, however, is the logical conclusion of your argument, which is that Christianity wandered aimlessly and blindly and in error from the very time Christ ascended. Have you no faith in the Holy Spirit? If your argument is true, there is no hope for any of us. Christ came to establish His Church, and that Church has been faithfully led in all truth by the Holy Spirit for 2000 years.

James

Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta · Jun 25, 2004

Amen, James!

I can't contribute much to this discussion, as I am still kind of new to Orthodoxy. However, I just wanted to take a second to thank all of you for sharing about this topic. It's helpful to me! Coming from a fundamental protestant background, praying to Saints still feels a little foreign at times. I don't want to stray too much from this topic, but do any of you have favorite Saints you pray to? Besides your patron, I mean. Sometimes when I have a particular need, I kind of wish I knew who'd be best to go to with it. Although, I'm sure any Saint would be helpful....

Rick of Wessex · Jun 25, 2004

Hello, Elisaveta!

I guess we all do. I'll open another thread on this subject, ok?

Your brother in XC,
Rick

Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta · Jun 25, 2004

Thanks, Rick! I kind of wanted to start a new thread, but I don't think I can yet. Or, at least, I haven't figured out how to yet.....

statrei · Jun 26, 2004

Iacobus said:
How is John 21:23 proof that anything went wrong? Is it because John died before the second coming? Read verses 23 and 24 carefully. Essentially, what Jesus was saying was "what's it to you?"

More troubling, however, is the logical conclusion of your argument, which is that Christianity wandered aimlessly and blindly and in error from the very time Christ ascended. Have you no faith in the Holy Spirit? If your argument is true, there is no hope for any of us. Christ came to establish His Church, and that Church has been faithfully led in all truth by the Holy Spirit for 2000 years.

James

You read v. 23 as if it were v. 22. V. 23 clearly shows that the early church misapplied the statement that meant, "what's it to you," to mean "John will not die." It is easy to determine approximately when that new teaching was developed because Paul did not use it when he wrote 1 Thess.

I do not equate the Holy Spirit to the Church. The Church has the privilege to be an agency of God, but it is not the Holy Spirit. Flaws in the church do not mean there are flaws in God or that the Church is of no use. My car may have a flaw in its engine but I don't discard it on account of that. If the historical record of John 21:23 (which cannot be denied since the elders in Ephesus were quick to add in v. 24 a certificate of authenticity) conflicts with the way you view the church, you man need to revisit your view of the church, not attempt to disregard John's record.

Darius

Iacobus · Jun 26, 2004

statrei said:
You read v. 23 as if it were v. 22. V. 23 clearly shows that the early church misapplied the statement that meant, "what's it to you," to mean "John will not die." It is easy to determine approximately when that new teaching was developed because Paul did not use it when he wrote 1 Thess.

I do not equate the Holy Spirit to the Church. The Church has the privilege to be an agency of God, but it is not the Holy Spirit. Flaws in the church do not mean there are flaws in God or that the Church is of no use. My car may have a flaw in its engine but I don't discard it on account of that. If the historical record of John 21:23 (which cannot be denied since the elders in Ephesus were quick to add in v. 24 a certificate of authenticity) conflicts with the way you view the church, you man need to revisit your view of the church, not attempt to disregard John's record.

Darius

Hi Darius

Welcome to TAW. I hope you hang around -- you'll get a whole new perspective on Christianity and the Church.

I see you're kind of new here, so let me mention that this is the wrong place to debate. That's true of all the congregational forums. I think they are designed to encourage members of the different Churches to fellowship with each other and answer questions from people who are curious. Debating is more in the theology section.

Having said that, I'll just point out that it is an article of faith here at TAW that the Holy Spirit has guided the Orthodox Church in all truth for the last 2000 years. We do not need to revisit our views on ecclesiology -- we're quite content with them. I just can't figure out where you get your exegesis of these verses from. It doesn't track anything I've ever run across, even when I was a protestant. But I'm not so curious that I want to change the focus of this thread from what it already is. PM if you like, or take it to the theology forums.

James

statrei · Jun 26, 2004

Thanks for the nudge, James. I did not mean to offend. I responded to the original post then simply tried to answer a challenge to what I had posted. I understand fully.

Darius

Reader Nilus · Jun 26, 2004

When I was a Lutheran I would have thought the saints praying for us was just a pipe dream and nothing more, but while still a Lutheran the Blessed Theotokos visited me, and from then on the ties to be a Lutheran were loosed. I mean it blew me away, and the next day I went to Sister Claire an RC nun attached to the Campus Christian Ministry, and told her what had happened, I said such things do not happen to Lutherans. She told me I was blessed, and gave me some books to read. I have never doubted the communion of saints after that.
Jeff the Finn

MariaRegina · Jun 26, 2004

jeffthefinn said:
When I was a Lutheran I would have thought the saints praying for us was just a pipe dream and nothing more, but while still a Lutheran the Blessed Theotokos visited me, and from then on the ties to be a Lutheran were loosed. I mean it blew me away, and the next day I went to Sister Claire an RC nun attached to the Campus Christian Ministry, and told her what had happened, I said such things do not happen to Lutherans. She told me I was blessed, and gave me some books to read. I have never doubted the communion of saints after that.
Jeff the Finn

Sorry for the slight detour -- Jeff -- please do post your conversion story -- if you talked with this nun why didn't you join her faith?

Reader Nilus · Jun 26, 2004

Because of the light of the east, the Russian Orthodox Church of Dostoevsky, that is why I did not become a Catholic.
Jeff the Finn

The Prokeimenon! · Jun 26, 2004

Dear Daedalus,
I can't begin to tell you how many times I have had serious doubts about the most basic things. They are always troubling. They pass, though. Sometimes I need to read alot and assure myself intellectually, and sometimes I just need to pray and continue to act as if I have no doubts and eventually the doubts are lifted.

I think you know in your heart that it is good to ask for the prayers of you friends, whether they are living on earth or living in heaven. Keep asking for their help, even if you feel it's not working or are having trouble believing. Their prayers to God will strengthen you!

Moses

Orthosdoxa · Jun 26, 2004

Hi Darius!

Thanks for joining us here! I apologize for not being more clear that TAW is not a debate board when I invited you - I guess I didn't think about it. There are many places on this general board where it is allowed, however, if you want to check them out. I hope you'll stick around and hang out with us, too, though!

Katherine

statrei · Jun 27, 2004

There you are, Katherine. I am already enjoying this experience. I have met one other member who has quite a lot in common with me. We are about the same age, had the same training and he used to attend the church I now attend.

Darius

Anonykat said:
Hi Darius!

Thanks for joining us here! I apologize for not being more clear that TAW is not a debate board when I invited you - I guess I didn't think about it. There are many places on this general board where it is allowed, however, if you want to check them out. I hope you'll stick around and hang out with us, too, though!

Katherine

Matthias · Jun 28, 2004

We welcome you with songs of gladness, welcome Darius, welcome! Welcome, welcome!

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