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Verona,
Our mission as evangelists is to find the elect and save them via the gospel. That kind of gets me excited. We are putting out the word and watching the Spirit of God bring those made for His glory home.
How about just lifting up Jesus and letting Jesus do the drawing onto Himself, and the saving of humans that will surrender to Jesus and believe?
..... God's involvement in those He passes over is one as Sovereign Lord, but not a direct cause. The predestination of the reprobate, then, is not symmetrical with God's work to save the elect.
That's how I see it, anyway.
Thanks for you posts Eddie. Hopefully we can agreeably differ.
Um... that's the same thing, Lee.
Eddie,
No, not the same. Your post says: "Our mission as evangelists is to find the elect and save them via the gospel."
OUR mission has nothing to do with OUR saving anyone via the Gospel. OUR mission has NOTHING to do with OUR FINDING anyone, especially these ELECT individuals you talk about.
OUR mission is to lift up Jesus. Jesus does the drawing. Jesus does the saving. Jesus does the reconciling to GOD. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to become active in our lives to guide us IF we will follow Him.
WE lift up Jesus. Jesus does the rest, ALL of it.
Blessings,
Lee
Eddie,
No, not the same. Your post says: "Our mission as evangelists is to find the elect and save them via the gospel."
OUR mission has nothing to do with OUR saving anyone via the Gospel. OUR mission has NOTHING to do with OUR FINDING anyone, especially these ELECT individuals you talk about.
OUR mission is to lift up Jesus. Jesus does the drawing. Jesus does the saving. Jesus does the reconciling to GOD. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to become active in our lives to guide us IF we will follow Him.
WE lift up Jesus. Jesus does the rest, ALL of it.
Blessings,
Lee
How about just lifting up Jesus and letting Jesus do the drawing onto Himself, and the saving of humans that will surrender to Jesus and believe?
ME + Jesus Salvation. No thanks
Don't think so.
Accepting a free gift does not imply one has participated in the saving. Some one here has already posted the life boat analogy.
If some one has a gun pointed at your head making demands. Whether you surrender to those demand or not did not determine before hand that the gun men would point his gun at you.
IMO you theology is cart before the horse. With reference to some previous posts. John Calvin et al were and still are ambiguous on this.
If you have to accept the free gift or you have to do anything at all in order to be saved, then it is a legal salvation.
I used to hold to this theology. The problem is this.
Faith is a gift:
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast," (Ephesians 2:8-9).
And here is what the Bible says about the gifts and the calling of God:
"From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable," (Romans 11:29).
ir·rev·o·ca·ble /ˌiˈrevəkəbəl/
Adjective: Not able to be changed, reversed, or recovered; final.
It is final. Salvation is God's work. He initiates, works, and finishes. Man can resist the Spirit of God, but not the gift of salvation when the Spirit applies it.
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).
This couldn't be taken in a corporate sense, because of the word "all" used here. If this verse is about a corporate election of the church as a whole, Christ would have said, "That which the Father gives me...."
There is no way around it. This is simply how God exercises His sovereignty.
It's not a gun to your head scenario; it's a sovereign God to man scenario.
Romans 11:25-36
Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob;
and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.
As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they (ISRAEL) are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?
Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?
For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen."
Context, Context, Context............
John 6:35-40:
Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
Context, Context, Context..............
Read the entire letter. WE are SAVED not of ourselves, it (SALVATION) is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast, (ABOUT BEING SAVED BY GRACE). Context.
And as to your understanding of giving of gifts........... if I send you a present and you think it a bomb and do not accept it from the postman, does that mean that I never sent it to you? It does mean that you did not accept it, but it does not mean that I did not give it to you..........it remains a free gift from me to you, whether or not you accepted it.
If you have to accept the free gift or you have to do anything at all in order to be saved, then it is a legal salvation.
I used to hold to this theology. The problem is this.
Faith is a gift:
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast," (Ephesians 2:8-9).
And here is what the Bible says about the gifts and the calling of God:
"From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable," (Romans 11:29).
ir·rev·o·ca·ble /ˌiˈrevəkəbəl/
Adjective: Not able to be changed, reversed, or recovered; final.
It is final. Salvation is God's work. He initiates, works, and finishes. Man can resist the Spirit of God, but not the gift of salvation when the Spirit applies it.
The problem with your gun analogy is that it leaves out God's work on the heart of the man before the man has to make a decision. Or do you think that Lazarus could have said, "No, Lord; I will stay dead"? I tell you this, if our Lord wouldn't have called Lazarus by name, the tombs would have emptied at His sovereign voice.
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).
This couldn't be taken in a corporate sense, because of the word "all" used here. If this verse is about a corporate election of the church as a whole, Christ would have said, "That which the Father gives me...."
There is no way around it. This is simply how God exercises His sovereignty.
It's not a gun to your head scenario; it's a sovereign God to man scenario.
It is not my "gun" theology.
FWIW. I am at a loss with monergism vs synergism.
The problem with monergism, as we all know, the bottom line is God is responsible for mans sin. No way around that. The problem with synergism is as has been pointed out it negates Gods omniscience etc to some degree.
As I posted previously, John Calvin did not know that answer ( I won't re-quote his text).
FWIW. I am at a loss with monergism vs synergism.
The problem with monergism, as we all know, the bottom line is God is responsible for mans sin. No way around that. The problem with synergism is as has been pointed out it negates Gods omniscience etc to some degree.
As I posted previously, John Calvin did not know that answer ( I won't re-quote his text).
Ever read Vincent Cheung?
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