Doing good works for the wrong reasons

Krillin · Jul 28, 2013

It is very, very clear in scripture that we cannot obtain salvation through good works. I understand this much.

Hypothetical question: Let's say you are trying to help out a homeless man, but you know that deep down you are just doing it for self gain. If that is the case do you go as far as to not help him? That wouldn't seem right, but helping him would be selfish.

I was reading in Philippians when early on I stumbled on a passage that stood out to me.

(Phillipians 1:15 - 18) Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense, or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice.

Is Paul presenting a similar question or am I interpreting this wrong?

Bjornke · Jul 28, 2013

Wow wonderful question. I always though Paul meant that even though they were preaching Christ out of envy and selfish reason, that people were still coming to Christ anyways.

Think about it. Even when a pastor teaches biblically sound Christ to his follows, though that pastor may not be doing it for the right reasons, don't the people still hear Christ? yes they do! It is a verse that I always marveled at! Even though some preach Christ for the wrong reasons, if they preach Christ in a biblically sound manner, then they're still helping the kingdom even when they don't realize it!

Hard to understand, but say I have a friend who is selling cookies at a stand next to me, and the cookies are really really good. The cookies are Girl Scouts Cookies. So because I envy him and his success, I go out and start selling Girl Scouts Cookies too, but out of envy for my friend. In the end, the same cookie is sold, but one is done out of honesty, and the other out of envy. The same is taught with this verse by the Apostle Paul.

Blessings,

Brandon

iambren · Jul 28, 2013

There were those that "cast out demons" in His name that never knew Him. I would say do the deed but clean up your attitude. There is nothing wrong in going to analtar to say the sinners prayer or witness because it makes you feel good to expand the Kingdom of God.

A book that I found helpful was Desiring God by Piper to sort out selfishness/self interest etc.

BFine · Jul 30, 2013

Hypothetical question: "Let's say you are trying to help out a homeless man, but you know that deep down you are just doing it for self gain. If that is the case do you go as far as to not help him? That wouldn't seem right, but helping him would be selfish."

*What would you actually gain by helping out a homeless man for the wrong
reasons?

I'm wondering what the self gain would actually be...?

Krillin · Jul 30, 2013

BFine said:
Hypothetical question: "Let's say you are trying to help out a homeless man, but you know that deep down you are just doing it for self gain. If that is the case do you go as far as to not help him? That wouldn't seem right, but helping him would be selfish."

*What would you actually gain by helping out a homeless man for the wrong
reasons?

I'm wondering what the self gain would actually be...?

So that perhaps one could be seen by others. Or maybe one is trying to "earn" their way in to heaven. It would be an attitude issue i suppose, like iambren mentioned.

The Fire Rises · Jul 30, 2013

I think what's important to understand is that while man looks at what's on the outside, God look at the heart. He knows why we do what we do. For me, I was led to believe that I basically had to be a "good" person to "earn" my salvation (which actually sounds silly just typing that). The problem with this was A) It was impossible and B) each and every good deed/action I performed was inevitably stained with self-interest, not selflessness.

If you like at Christ, all the miracles He performed for people really didn't help Him in anyway. Sure, it furthered His ministry on earth, but each and every time He always gave the glory to the Father. What's more, His deeds did not save Him from the horrors of the cross.

So while works indeed are not enough to merit our own salvation, James says that at the time time, faith without works is dead. Many view this as apparently contradictory, but they're really not. James is saying that a genuine faith will necessarily produce good works, that our actions will be a natural by-product of what we believe. And really that makes sense when you think about it. If we don't practice what we preach, if we don't do what we say we believe, then do we really believe it?

Faith is a verb, not a noun.

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter." (Matt. 7:22)

Quasicentennial · Jul 30, 2013

We live in a community where there is a quality of care, health and safety, and the government-supported organizations such as the police force, social welfare services, non-government-funded organizations such as the Salvation Army, Red Cross - all want to help those who are homeless or some other problem area such as unemployment.:
Virtually nobody can escape being invisible in the outside world unless they lived underground like a worm because the police are always on the look out for suspicious crimes, especially drug-trafficking crimelords who seek fast money but risk innocent lives being caught in this disease-causing drug war.:
There is the good of Christ in all of us, whether you are a Christian or not, and because of sin since Adam and Eve were born, not many non-Christians such as atheists and Scientologists realize that this quality of care, health and safety is the mirror-like attitude of Jesus Christ .;'*';.

seeingeyes · Jul 30, 2013

SlenderMan said:
It is very, very clear in scripture that we cannot obtain salvation through good works. I understand this much.

Hypothetical question: Let's say you are trying to help out a homeless man, but you know that deep down you are just doing it for self gain. If that is the case do you go as far as to not help him? That wouldn't seem right, but helping him would be selfish.

I was reading in Philippians when early on I stumbled on a passage that stood out to me.

(Phillipians 1:15 - 18) Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense, or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice.

Is Paul presenting a similar question or am I interpreting this wrong?

This is an awesome question. (Good eye! )

This takes us to what Jesus preached about the heart. The Scriptures certainly point out outward actions that should be done, but they also make clear that our God judges the heart.

The quickest example in in the rich young man: "And behold, a man came up to him, saying, Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life? And he said to him, Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments. He said to him, Which ones? And Jesus said, You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. The young man said to him, All these I have kept. What do I still lack? Jesus said to him, If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me. When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions." (Matt 19)

This young man had all the bases of the law covered. But since he wouldn't give up his shiny new car in order to feed his neighbor, it was revealed that he had no love, even though he thought he did.

His whole priority was himself. "How do I get eternal life?" "How do I get more treasure for myself?" When our good deeds are indistinguishable from a spiritual retirement plan, then we reveal that we have no love, just as the rich young man did (no matter what pious words we use).

seeingeyes · Jul 30, 2013

BFine said:
Hypothetical question: "Let's say you are trying to help out a homeless man, but you know that deep down you are just doing it for self gain. If that is the case do you go as far as to not help him? That wouldn't seem right, but helping him would be selfish."

*What would you actually gain by helping out a homeless man for the wrong
reasons?

I'm wondering what the self gain would actually be...?

One could do it to look generous to others.

"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.
"(Matt 6:2)

paul1149 · Jul 30, 2013

SlenderMan said:
Let's say you are trying to help out a homeless man, but you know that deep down you are just doing it for self gain. If that is the case do you go as far as to not help him? That wouldn't seem right, but helping him would be selfish.

It is an interesting question. The difference between your hypothetical and the people who were preaching Christ out of animosity to Paul is that you are aware of your motivational problem and disapprove of it. Therein lies hope.

Helping the homeless man is an objectively good thing. All else being equal, there is no reason not to do it. So if you find yourself in this situation I would say the thing to do is allow the Holy Spirit to get down to your motivations and change your heart. Sometimes it is in the doing of a good deed that our hearts are changed, in ways that no amount of prayer alone can do (compare James 2.22). Don't shrink back from the challenge.

The people trying to give Paul a hard time presumably were miscasting the Gospel in order to poison opinion against Paul, making his imprisonment harder. That's pretty bad, yet even then Paul looks at the big picture rather than his own comfort. He knows that even when the Word is distorted seeds are planted, and good can come out of it eventually. Nonetheless, those doing something like that will eventually have to answer for their motivations, as we see in the verses from the close of the Sermon on the Mount that have been cited here. But that will be between them and God, so Paul doesn't waste time worrying about it. That shows a whole lot of spiritual maturity.

Krillin · Jul 30, 2013

One more situation:

Let's say I save up enough money to purchase the Play Station 4 when it comes out. I am on my way to get it when I drive past a hungry man. I know that God would want me to help this man out, so instead of buying the console I turn around and get him some food and maybe a place to stay. Is this acting out of faith since I had to consciously choose to do so? Or must works of faith come 100% naturally without us thinking?

seeingeyes · Jul 30, 2013

SlenderMan said:
One more situation:

Let's say I save up enough money to purchase the Play Station 4 when it comes out. I am on my way to get it when I drive past a hungry man. I know that God would want me to help this man out, so instead of buying the console I turn around and get him some food and maybe a place to stay. Is this acting out of faith since I had to consciously choose to do so? Or must works of faith come 100% naturally without us thinking?

Tell me this: Why did you think that God wanted you to help this man out?

Krillin · Jul 30, 2013

seeingeyes said:
Tell me this: Why did you think that God wanted you to help this man out?

Because we are told "Whatever you did for the least of these, you did for me in heaven." But Jesus describes the people being told this as being confused, having not even known that they helped someone out.

seeingeyes · Jul 30, 2013

SlenderMan said:
Because we are told "Whatever you did for the least of these, you did for me in heaven." But Jesus describes the people being told this as being confused, having not even known that they helped someone out.

Right. I think that's because they wanted to help out their fellow man. It wasn't a burden or a rule to follow, they just saw someone who needed help and helped them.

That's love.

The Fire Rises · Jul 30, 2013

I think you're making this more complicated than it needs to be. Love is simple and pure. Above all else, love is a choice, not necessarily a fuzzy, warm feeling we get. So just because we don't necessarily feel overly enthusiastic or zealous every single time we do something good, that doesn't somehow disqualify the deed. For example, was Christ chomping at the bit to be tortured, crucified and murdered? Of course not. But He put the needs of others above His personal feelings and desires. For me, the core of it means putting others' needs and concerns above ours, just as Christ did for us.

There's no set formula for how love works, it's one of the wonderful mysteries of life. However, I do know that three of the essential "ingredients" are humility, sincerity and seflessness (is that a word? it keeps telling me I'm spelling i wrong : l )

Bjornke · Jul 30, 2013

The Fire Rises said:
I think you're making this more complicated than it needs to be. Love is simple and pure. Above all else, love is a choice, not necessarily a fuzzy, warm feeling we get. So just because we don't necessarily feel overly enthusiastic or zealous every single time we do something good, that doesn't somehow disqualify the deed. For example, was Christ chomping at the bit to be tortured, crucified and murdered? Of course not. But He put the needs of others above His personal feelings and desires. For me, the core of it means putting others' needs and concerns above ours, just as Christ did for us.

There's no set formula for how love works, it's one of the wonderful mysteries of life. However, I do know that three of the essential "ingredients" are humility, sincerity and seflessness (is that a word? it keeps telling me I'm spelling i wrong : l )

I agree with your post so much! Love is such a mystery, yet it is what binds us to Christ! Christ could have very easily walked away from the Cross, but instead He was silent, as He let His accusers accuse Him. Christ did it out of love, putting the eternal lives of us before His carnal life. He was more than willing to die for us, when He didn't have to. I think this is why Jesus spoke in parables, so that His works would mean more because you'd have to have faith to believe, and understand.

paul1149 · Jul 30, 2013

SlenderMan said:
One more situation:

Let's say I save up enough money to purchase the Play Station 4 when it comes out. I am on my way to get it when I drive past a hungry man. I know that God would want me to help this man out, so instead of buying the console I turn around and get him some food and maybe a place to stay. Is this acting out of faith since I had to consciously choose to do so? Or must works of faith come 100% naturally without us thinking?

"The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets." We're not - and not to be - always caught up in the Spirit unthinkingly. Sometimes things happen so naturally that we hardly need to give them a thought. But that's not always the case. Sometimes we need to pray and consider our way, because we're called to be co-laborers with Christ, and He's raising us up to reign with Him. We are called to wisdom.

BFine · Jul 30, 2013

SlenderMan said:

So that perhaps one could be seen by others. Or maybe one is trying to "earn" their way in to heaven. It would be an attitude issue i suppose, like iambren mentioned.

Click to expand...

*Inwardly nothing is gained and what can happen is a person's conscious
will bother them and the more it is "ignored" the body becomes
stressed and more times than not it can lead to any sort of
illness---not to mention how it will negatively affect
the person's walk with the Lord.

Ark100 · Jul 31, 2013

SlenderMan said:
It is very, very clear in scripture that we cannot obtain salvation through good works. I understand this much.

Hypothetical question: Let's say you are trying to help out a homeless man, but you know that deep down you are just doing it for self gain. If that is the case do you go as far as to not help him? That wouldn't seem right, but helping him would be selfish.

I was reading in Philippians when early on I stumbled on a passage that stood out to me.

(Phillipians 1:15 - 18) Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense, or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice.

Is Paul presenting a similar question or am I interpreting this wrong?

Do good anyway. Fake it till you make it. Its better to do good regardless than not to.
God knows and sees all, and even He can turn anyone's selfishness into selflessness

Paul's words dont really tally with your question much. Though slightly. Paul's word is literal. Its what it says. He's emphasising that only God knows the heart but regardless what motive people use to preach about Christ, He is still known. And the Judge is God and He is the one who will repay each and everyone, not man

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