Does your view of creation affect your eschatology?

Verticordious said:

Well, when a person believes that the History of the Earth is split in to 6 1000 year periods, followed by a 1000 year physical reign of Christ, which position on origins would you guess they fall under?

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but which is influending what? The way you phrase this, the eschatology came first -- the belief in six 1,000 year periods. Then to fit with that belief, they tend to believe in a 6,000 year old earth.

So are question stands, why should a belief in YEC, OEC, etc. dictate your eschatology? Even if you are TE, you could still believe in an imminent end of the world.

They tend to believe that animal death is evil, that physical death is a punishment for sin, and that Adam's sin brought some sorta of physical and spiritual curse upon the rest of mankind, that pain is also a punishment for Adam's sin, and I've even seen one (ICR.org) suggest that Adam was an immortal who had superhero-like powers before the "curse".

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All these are ad hoc hypotheses to avoid theological falsification of YEC. Notice that they are playing very fast and loose with a text that they say is "inerrant" and "literal".

Anyway, my point is that most people seem to think the age of the Earth is simply a disagreement over Genesis 1, which is not correct. YEC and OEC theologies have more differences than they do similarities.

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So the "big tent" we hear so much about from creationists doesn't really work? OEC and YEC can't fit in the same theological tent?

lucaspa said:

but which is influending what? The way you phrase this, the eschatology came first -- the belief in six 1,000 year periods. Then to fit with that belief, they tend to believe in a 6,000 year old earth.

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Influence is not a one-way street. Also, if you had actually read my post you would see that I mentioned that I cannot say for sure which came first, but that does not mean that they do not influence each other.

lucaspa said:

So are question stands, why should a belief in YEC, OEC, etc. dictate your eschatology? Even if you are TE, you could still believe in an imminent end of the world.

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Yes, people are free to believe whatever they want.

lucaspa said:

All these are ad hoc hypotheses to avoid theological falsification of YEC. Notice that they are playing very fast and loose with a text that they say is "inerrant" and "literal".

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I could easily disprove YEC theology if that was the topic of the thread. I was simply pointing out that beliefs are interwoven more deeply than some people seem to realize. I did not say that origins was the number one factor for every single person's eschatology, only that it is can be a related factor in some people theology, in response to your questioning if any direct relationship could exist. Do you even read posts before replying to them?

So the "big tent" we hear so much about from creationists doesn't really work? OEC and YEC can't fit in the same theological tent?

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I know nothing of this "big tent" you speak of.

Verticordious said:

Well, when a person believes that the History of the Earth is split in to 6 1000 year periods, followed by a 1000 year physical reign of Christ, which position on origins would you guess they fall under?

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Of course this is a very old figurative interpretation of the Genesis days, which sits strangely with modern literalist creationism.

Verticordious said:

Influence is not a one-way street.

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Cause and effect is. And you are using "influence" synonymously with cause and effect.

Also, if you had actually read my post you would see that I mentioned that I cannot say for sure which came first, but that does not mean that they do not influence each other.

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In the rest of the paragraph you were acting like you knew which came first. Thus my question.

Yes, people are free to believe whatever they want.

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As a general statement, no, people are not free to believe whatever they want. At least, they are not if they have any regard for truth. Some beliefs simply contradict truth.

If you belong to a group and wish to remain with the group, again you are not free to believe whatever you want. For instance, as a Christian you must believe the theological statements of the Nicene Creed, including Trinity. If you don't, you can't be Christian.

You may have meant a more specific statement like "People's eschatological beliefs are not tied to their beliefs about origins. People are free to have whatever eschatalogical belief no matter what beliefs they have about origins."

I could easily disprove YEC theology if that was the topic of the thread. I was simply pointing out that beliefs are interwoven more deeply than some people seem to realize.

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You listed a set of beliefs within YEC. I was commenting on that set.

I did not say that origins was the number one factor for every single person's eschatology,

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I never said you did! Where did you get this? And you accuse me of not reading?

I know nothing of this "big tent" you speak of.

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It's a term used frequently among creationists to denote that they can all unite in the "big tent" of creationism and that any differences between YEC, OEC, IDers, etc. are minor and trivial. According to you, the theological differences are not trivial.

Assyrian said:

Of course this is a very old figurative interpretation of the Genesis days, which sits strangely with modern literalist creationism.

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Particularly those who believe the earth is only 6,000 years old! According to six 1,000 year periods of creation, we are still in creation week!

I think YEC tend to me more likely to take Revelation more literally. I don't mean they think there will literally be a 10 headed dragon, but that something crazy is going to go down at some point in the near future.

I am a TE though and I really have no idea what will happen. The universe will probably continue for billions more years and slowly die. I also have no idea what will happen after death or what the afterlife will be like. Maybe we will die and be resurrection after being non-existant for a while or maybe we will go straight to God after death. Will heaven be physical and in time or a spaceless, timeless union with God, I don't know.

lucaspa said:

Particularly those who believe the earth is only 6,000 years old! According to six 1,000 year periods of creation, we are still in creation week!

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Technically the Millennium is overdue, guess Bishop Ussher got it wrong.

I think the "six 1,000 year time periods" idea doesn't require an interpretation of the Genesis days as being anything other than six 24 hour days. It doesn't go well with Matthew 24:36, though, no matter how you try to work with it.

GlobalWolf2010 said:

I think the "six 1,000 year time periods" idea doesn't require an interpretation of the Genesis days as being anything other than six 24 hour days.

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The idea comes from a figurative interpretation of the days of Genesis that goes way back to the early church where we see it in writings like the epistle of Barnabas, who saw the days Genesis in terms of Psalm 90 and 2Pet 3 a day is as a thousand years. You find this interpretation from a lot of the church fathers who took the days literally too. They believed both, that that God created the world in six day and that the day stand for a thousand years. The problem for modern creationist is that one of the main planks in their argument is that Genesis can only be interpreted literally. Because once they admit there are different ways to read the creation account, there is no reason to cling to an interpretation we know from science is wrong.

It doesn't go well with Matthew 24:36, though, no matter how you try to work with it.

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I think the excuse is Jesus warns about not knowing the day and hour, but say nothing about years centuries and millennia. Kind of missing the point though :0

AnswersInHovind said:

He says also that when we die, we are dead, and stay dead until the ressurection and the second coming, at which point heaven and earth will become one - the new creation.

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Wright argues that when we die our spirit goes to dwell with God in heaven (life after death) but that is not the whole story; that is, when Jesus comes again and ushers in the new creation our bodies will be resurrected and we will have 'life after life after death'. Hence our hope is resurrection life not simply a spiritual experience post-death.

With respect to your question; yes our eschatology will be affected by our view of creation in that if we simply read the Genesis account along existential grounds we will be more likely to see our eschatology as existential too, whereas if we see creation as itself eschatological then that is a far fuller and richer perspective. One of my favourite theologians (after Wright) is Michael Horton who writes in his Lord & Servant: