Does the Universe have a end????

It is my understanding that the universe is constantly expanding. I see that as a picture of the Lord Himself who is also constantly expanding as He grows through the many members of His body.

I have considered some things in my continual growth in Christ, and I have asked myself about the creation of the universe. Many say evolution has a major part in this. Can someone explain to me what is the primary concept of Evolution? It seems to me it is harder to believe in evolution, than just to believe that a Supernatual being is the author.

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The theory of evolution is a theory - an educated guess based on evidence, but not enough evidence for it to be a fact. It is a fact that some things evolve or change from one generation to the next. The theory of evolution tries to prove that all things including human beings have evolved from earlier or simpler life forms. The problem or major hole in that theory is that evidence of a line of succession from a single celled organism or lower life form changing or evolving all the way into a human being has not been found. It is theorized that humans evolved from apes or ape-like creatures. But, there is a "missing link" in that theory - the chain of succession is incomplete - there is not enough evidence to show that human beings did indeed evolve from a lower or different life form. There is evidence of lower humanoid type life forms, but no evidence that they changed or evolved into today's human beings.
The reason there is no evidence and no missing link is because it did not happen.

lamblion said:

God created the universe limitless, with no end.
Is their Really no end in space. If so their has to be other life. Why would God create a universe with no end just to be empty!!!

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God doesn't need things around Him to make Him happy or love or anything else for that matter. He (Godhead) are totally self sustaining. After all they have survived just fine with all that space for forever (no beginning for Godhead) and without man or angels. The 10 attributes of the Godhead show's that they are co-equal, and co-eternal, having not created love......but ARE love. Having not created Immutability.....but ARE immutable. Having NOT created Soverenity.....but ARE sovern....etc, ect. Completely self sustaining.

Space is endless, but remember after satan in thrown into the lake of fire for all time (after GOG revolution) a new earth and new galaxies will be formed. There is no other life outside of vegatable, mineral, and angelic on other planets.

n the 1970's the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence league held a global consortium where all the greatest minds assembled. They set out to deternine the liklihood of life existing on other planets in the universe. To calibrate this vast probability undertaking, a known planet had to be subjected first to allow for the one chance in however many opportunities. They were quite shocked by their findings.

Just a basic element for life (a protein molecule) has one chance in 10 to the 137th power to form on its own. That's one and only one chance in 10 with 137 zeroes. The rule of thumb for logical impossibility is only one chance in 10 to the 50th power.

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Ah yes, the anthropic principle.

If I am not mistaken Brandon Carter, the physicist who coined the term made the claim that while earth is not central, it is inevitably priviliged.

I actually struggle with this notion. On one hand, I believe that God was behind the creation of the earth -- which I suppose on some level makes it priviliged. But I'm not sure whether I agree it is actually priviledged above other galaxies and planets.

I mean, the probability of the universe is a number that reads 1 in 10^10^123. What does this probability mean? It means that there are 10^10^123 possible universes that could have formed and we live in one of them. The probability of any universe forming is the exact same probability of our own universe forming.

If two people buy a lotto ticket, both people have the same chance at winning. If one of those people wins, that event is improbable, but no less probable than if the other person one. Or whoever. Someone is guarenteed to win, and when it happens that event will be improbable. So in that sense, the improbable is guarenteed to happen.

I'm not sure that our galaxy is any more priviledged than the others. I mean, it is quite possible that there are many other galaxies out there with minute differences from this one that really don't affect a thing on earth. Who is to say one is more privileged than another.

Unless of course God only offers salvation to people in one universe. I suppose that would count as priviledge. But who knows? Maybe he atoned for other people in another galaxies sins as well.

It's all mind-boggling, really. Space-time alone makes me want to bang my head against a wall, let along trying to comprehend the magnitude of the universe and the implications it.

lamblion said:

One of his attributes is Omniscience, which means ALL science.

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No, this means All Knowing. God know's everything, (this includes science) and there never was a time when He didn't.

lamblion said:

God can not create Eternal, for it has always been, something that has always been can not have a beginning, or be created.

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You are half right. God CAN create eternal....but He didn't.......because God "IS" eternal. God did not create love, He IS love. God did not create Omnipotence.....He IS Omnipotent....etc.,...ect.

lamblion said:

God has set standards in nature that symbolizes him and his Godhead(Trinity)

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Here is the Godhead taught from systematic theology........

Subject: GODHEAD.......doctrine of divine essence

1. Principles; (Points 1 & 2).
....A. God is One in essence; (Jn 10:30).
....B. All the attributes of essence are resident in God, but all may not be manifest at one time.
.......(1) Certain situations in life summon certain charactaristics.
.......(2) Illustration of light; all colors are present in any ray of light, but are only be visible under
...........cetrain conditions of relection and refraction.

2. Examples of Divine essence;
....A. Salvation; Love and Eternal Life are manifest.
....B. Faithfulness; Immutability and Love are manifest.
....C. God's Plan; Omniscience and sovereignty are manifest.
....D. God's Will; sovereignty is manifest.
....E. Judgement; Justice and Righteousness are manifest.


........Omniscience: all knowing.
........Omnipotence: all power.
........Omnipresence: infinite presence.
........Sovereignty: Supreme Being of the Universe.
........Love: infinite capacity for affection, esteem, respect, and pleasure of same.
........Eternal Life: timeless existence without beginning or end.
........Righteousness: intrinsic Good, intergrity, honor, uprightness..
........Justice: absolute fairness, equity, judgement.
........Immutablilty: Unchanging, "not subject to change or variation in quality or nature".
........Veracity: Truth.

3. Omniscience:
....A. God is all-knowing; (1Sam 2:3, Job 26:6, 31:4, 34:21, 37:16, 42:2b; Psa 139:1-6,12,
.......147:4; Jer 16:17, Ezek 11:5, Matt 10:19,30; Heb 4:13).
....B. Infinite in wisdom and understanding; (1Sam 16:7, Psa 44:21, 147:5b; Prov 3:19,
.......5:21, 17:3; Isa 40:13,14; Jer 17:10, 51:15; Nah 1:7, Matt 6:8, Rom 8:27, 11:33; 1Jn 3:20)
....C. Knowing the end from the beginning (foreknowledge); (Isa 41:26, 42:9, 43:9, 46:10;
.......Acts 2:23, 15:8; 1Pet 1:2a)
....D. The Deity of Jesus Christ knew all things, and all men; (Matt 9:4, John 2:24,
........19:28, 21:17)
....E. Application to the believer; (Job 23:10, Matt 6:31,32; Jn 13:7, Rom 8:28, Col 1:10,
.......Jas 1:5, 3:17)

4. Omnipresence:
....A. God is ever-present, limited by neither time nor space, immanent and transcendent;
.......(Jer 23:24, Acts 17:27)
....B. The heavens cannot contain Him; (1Kings 8:27, Acts 17:24b)
....C. Heaven is His throne, the Earth His footstool; (Deut 4:39, Isa 66:1b)
....D. Man cannot escape the presence of God; (Job 34:21,22; Psa 139:7-10, Prov 15:3)
....E. Application to the believer, promise of the comfort of His presence; (Gen 28:15,
........Ex 33:14, Josh 1:9, Psa 121:3,4; Matt 18:20, 28:20b; 1Cor 3:16, Heb 13:5)

5. Omnipotence:
....A. God is all-powerful, with unlimited ability, within the scope of His own charactar;
........(Gen 17:1,18:14; Job 26:7, 42:2; Psa 24:8, 93:1b, 147:5a; Isa 40:26, 50:2; Jer 27:5,
.........32:27; Matt 19:26, Mark 14:36a, Luke 1:37, Rev 4:8)
....B. Limitless in authority; (Psa 33:9, Rom 13:1, Heb 1:3, Rev 19:6)
....C. Manifestation of His power; (2Chr 16:9, 25:8; Psa 74:13)
....D. Power of The Son; (Matt 9:6, 28:18; Jn 10:18, 17:2,3)
....E. Application to the believer; (1Sam 17:47, Psa 27:1, Isa 26:4, 40:29; Jer 33:3, Acts 1:8,
........2Cor 9:8, Eph 1:19, 3:20; 2Tim 1:12, 1Pet 1:5)

6. Sovereignty
....A. God is The Supreme Being of the Universe;
........(Gen 17:1,18:14; Job 26:7, 42:2; Psa 24:8, 93:1b, 147:5a; Isa 40:26, 50:2; Jer 27:5,
.........32:27; Matt 19:26, Mark 14:36a, Luke 1:37, Rev 4:8)
....B. King of Heaven and earth; (Psa 33:9, Rom 13:1, Heb 1:3, Rev 19:6)
....C. Eternal, infinite and self determining; (2Chr 16:9, 25:8; Psa 74:13)
....D. Power of The Son; (Matt 9:6, 28:18; Jn 10:18, 17:2,3)
....E. Expression of Divine volition resulting in a plan for humanity; (1Sam 17:47, Psa 27:1,
.......Isa 26:4, 40:29; Jer 33:3, Acts 1:8, 2Cor 9:8, Eph 1:19, 3:20; 2Tim 1:12, 1Pet 1:5)

7. Love:
....A. God is eternal, unchangeable Love
........(Gen 17:1,18:14; Job 26:7, 42:2; Psa 24:8, 93:1b, 147:5a; Isa 40:26, 50:2; Jer 27:5,
.........32:27; Matt 19:26, Mark 14:36a, Luke 1:37, Rev 4:8)
....B. The infinite, boundless Love compelled Him to reach out to those He Loves;
....C. In setting forth saving grace, His Love was three fold;
.......(1) The Father's Love; (Jn 3:16, 1Jn 4:9)
.......(2) The Son's Love; (1Jn 3:16a)
.......(3) The Holy Sirit's Love; (Jn 16:8-11, 1Cor 2:9-11)

.....D. Application to unbeliever;
.......(1) God's Righteousness cannot fellowship with sin, therefore, His Justice must demand
...........a penalty for sin. (Rom 6:23a).
.......(2) Therefore a barrier, which is insurmountable by man, who in his fallen state is doomed
...........to eternal separation from God, prevented His Love from reaching him; (Isa 59:2)
.......(3) The "barrier" was removed entoto by the cross;

....E. Application to the believer;
.......(1) Those who appropriate the grace of God at salvation are accepted in the Beloved;
...........(Eph 1:6, Rom 8:38,39)
.......(2) The Love of God is produced in the life of the believer filled with The Holy Spirit, and is
...........expressed in Love toward others.

8. Eternal Life:
....A. God is absolute existence, Jehovah; "The Self-Existent One who reveals Himself";
........(Gen 17:1,18:14; Job 26:7, 42:2; Psa 24:8, 93:1b, 147:5a; Isa 40:26, 50:2; Jer 27:5,
.........32:27; Matt 19:26, Mark 14:36a, Luke 1:37, Rev 4:8)
....B. God has no beginning (existed in "eternity past") (Gen 1:1a, Isa 43:13a, Col 1:17)
........and He will exist forever without end. (Deut 32:40, 33:27; Job 36:26, Psa 9:7, 90:2,
........102:27, 135:13; Lam 5:19, Hab 3:6, Jn 1:1-4, 1Tim 1:17, 1Jn 5:11, Rev 1:8, 21:6, 22:13)
....C. Application to unbeliever, rejection of Christ, eternal punishment;
........(Jn 8:24, Matt 25:46a)
....D. Application to the believer, eternal life in Christ; (Jn 3:16, 10:28,29; 1Jn 5:11)
....... Assurance; (Jn 8:51, 14:1-3).

9. Righteousness:
....A. God is absolute holiness, uprightness;
........(Gen 17:1,18:14; Job 26:7, 42:2; Psa 24:8, 93:1b, 147:5a; Isa 40:26, 50:2; Jer 27:5,
.........32:27; Matt 19:26, Mark 14:36a, Luke 1:37, Rev 4:8)
....B. Intrinsic good; (Psa 33:9, Rom 13:1, Heb 1:3, Rev 19:6)
....C. Free from sin; (2Cor 5:21, 1Jn 1:5)
....D. Perfect in His charactar and Person; (Deut 32:4b, Psa 7:9, 11:7, 97:6, 111:3, 119:137a;
.........Jer 23:6, Jn 17:25a, Rom 1:17, 10:3; 1Jn 2:29)
....E. Therefore, He is Righteous in all His attitudes and actions; (Deut 32:4a, 2Sam 22:31a,
.........Psa 113:137b, 145:17; Dan 9:14, Rev 19:2)
....F. Application to unbeliever;
........(1) God's concept of Righteousness is absolute, He cannot fellowship with sin, and He
............demands the same of His creatures that abide with Him in Heaven.
........(2) Man's concept of righteousness is relative; (Isa 64:6)
........(3) No man can measure up to the Divine standard of Righteousness by their own works.
............(*** 3:5, Rom 3:23, Psa 14:3)
........(4) However, the Righteousness of God is available to all who believe. (Rom 3:22)
....G. Application to the believer; (Rom 6:13,18; 1Tim 6:11 1 Jn 1:9)

10. Justice:
....A. It is impossinble for God to be unfair. His judgements are perfect and demand
........perfection. Justice administers the penalty which Righteousness demands.
........(Deut 32:4, 2Chr 19:7, Job 37:23, Psa 19:19, 50:6b, 58:11, 89:14; Isa 45:21, Jer 50:7,
........ Rom 3:26, Heb 10:30,31; 12:23; 1Jn 1:9, Rev 15:13)
....B. Justice exemplefied in the plan of redemption:
........(1) The Lord Jesus Christ, through His vicarious, efficatious, spiritual death transfered
........... the guilt of the sinner to Himself, satisfying the perfect Justice of God. (1Pet 2:24,
............ Rom 5:12, 6:23)
........(2) God is now free to pardon and justify the sinner who accepts His offer of saving grace.
........... (Rom 3:21-28, 4:5, 8:1)
........(3) God is equally justified in condemning all who reject salvation (Jn 3:18,36; Jn 5:28-30)
........(4) The basis of their indictment is their works, not sin. (Rev 20:11-15)
....C. Judgement is committed to Him who was judged for us; (Jn 5:22, Heb 9:27,28)
....E. Application to the believer; (1Cor 11:31, 1Jn 4:17)

11. Immutability:
....A. God is niether capable of, nor susecptible to change;
........(Psa 102:26,27; Mal 3:6, Heb1:12)
....B. He is absolute stablity; (Isa 40:28, Jas 1:7)
....C. His Word and His works are unchanging; (Psa 119:89, Eccl 3:14, Isa 40:8)
....D. Immutability is the basis for His everlasting faithfulness; (psa 36:5, 88:33, 119:90,
....... Lam 3:23)
..........(1) Faithful to keep His promises. (Num 23:19, Eccl 3:14, Isa 40:8)
..........(2) Faithful to forgive. (1 Jn 1:9)
..........(3) Faithful to keep us saved. (2Tim 2:12,13)
..........(4) Faithful to deliver in pressure. (1 Cor 10:13)
..........(5) Faithful to deliver in suffering. (1Pet 4:19)
..........(6) Faithful to provide a partnership w/Christ. (1Cor 1:9)
..........(7) Faithful to provide in eternity. (1Thes 5:24)
..........(8) Faithful to stabilize the believer. (2Tes 3:3)
....E. The faithfulness of Christ; (Heb 3:1,2; 13:18; Rev 1:5, 19:11)

12. Veracity:
....A. God is absolute Truth; (deut 32:4b)
....B. Veracity is manifest in His ways; (Psa 25:10, 86:15; Rev 15:13)
....C. In His works; (Psa 33:4, 111:7,8; Dan 4:37)
....D. In His Word; (2Sam 7:28, 1Kings 17:24, Psa 19:9, 119:142,151; Psa 138:2, Jn 8:45, 17:17,
.......2Cor 6:7, Eph 1:13)
....E. The Veracity of the Godhead;
..........(1) The Father; (Psa 31:5, Isa 65:16, Jer 10:10a, Jn 3:33, 17:3, Rom 3:4)
..........(2) The Son; (Jn 1:14, 15:26, 16:13; 1Jn 5:6)
..........(3) The Holy Spirit; (Jn 14:17, 15:26, 16:13; 1Jn 5:6)
....F. Application to believer; (Isa 38:19b, Psa 69:13)

The Analogy of light to the Godhead......(only an example)

Light is one in essense.....but 3 seperate properties (personality's)

Actinic....both seen and felt....God the Son

Lumaniferous......felt but not seen.....God the Holy Spirit

Caloirific.....neither seen nor felt.....God the Father

lamblion said:

Im talking about even before that. Before there was anything. what was God doing, because he has always exsisted. This is were our minds just stop, and can't go any further. This is how God made it, for a reason

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My mind is too finite to delve into the Infinite of God. He doesn't want us to know yet. My mind can only go so far, then it comes to an end......even "Endless" is impossible to comprehend.

gh93536 said:

I think about that alot, I assume God spoke us all in to existence just like God did to the stars and the plants.

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You are putting human characteristics on the Godhead. They are totally self sustaining, needing NOTHING. For eveything they have given us, is only a tiny speck of whom and what they are.

lamblion said:

How old is the universe, the planets, How about planet earth??? Has man been the only creature on this planet. Some biblical scholars conclude that man has only exsisted for 7,000 years. So is the Earth only 7,000 years old?

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No MAN know's.....we can only speculate.....But it is several millions years old (Gap theory).

lamblion said:

It has been scientiflly proven that space has no end. scientist have sent rockets into space many, many years ago that have never returned!!

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This is not correct. Physicists believe that the universe is finite and unbounded like the surface of a beach ball (but more like a 3 dimensional surface of a 4 dimensional sphere). This is what makes the most sense and is most consistent with the big bang theory which has a great deal of evidence to support it. But this has not been proven.

But even if this is the case it would take light around 10 billion years to cross the known universe and much longer than that to come full circle back to its starting point. Since the universe is explanding and seems to be accelertating, light may never be able to actually go all the way around the universe to return to its starting position (even supposing that this would be possible otherwise).

lamblion said:

Science has not been abel to find a end in the universe. It's vast area is unknown to man. Im not to sure it's limitless or has a ending limit, but by our evidence today we know it has limitless. Yet God is the author of it all, and therefore we can conclude that it has to lie outside of where He resides. The universe is the second heaven, and that means it is lower than the Third heaven where God dwells.

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What do you mean by "find(ing) a(n) end in the universe"? No one has reached the end of the universe, but there certainly is evidence that such exists.

lamblion said:

God created the universe limitless, with no end.
Is their Really no end in space. If so their has to be other life. Why would God create a universe with no end just to be empty!!!

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From the time God first created light, light instantly started expanding at 186,00 MPS. It has not stopped to date. Therefore the universe is still expanding at the speed of light. MHO

Actually, the universe does have an outermost boundary; it is simply expanding further and further and further, never in the same spot from one moment to the next; much like an ever expanding balloon.

As for the why would God make the universe so big part, would it have been better had he made it infinitely tiny? Only a few stars and planets? The universe is a wonderous display of the Lord our God's power; I do not claim or ask to understand the reasons or the nature of its existence.

lamblion said:

I need some help understanding evolution. Can some who debate with me on this?

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If you haven't already discovered it, the Origins Theology forum is right over here.