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No it's not. We invest in many countries technologies if they are in our interests.Yeah that’s the propaganda. Reality is it’s a totally one way relationship with us subsidizing and enabling Israel for no benefit to US interests.
Here are some status before the war
Life in GAZA
- GDP per capita $5K
- Unemployment rate 25%
- Infant Morality 12%
- Maternal Morality 20%
- Below poverty level 60%
- Safe drinking Water 80%
This describes life in Gaza before Israel took any action, when the world sent $2 billion annually in aid.
I never heard anyone complain about the life in Gaza under their elected officials, Hamas.
Suddenly, many people are concerned about 70% of civilian infrastructure in Gaza.
Where were they when 60% of Gaza's civilians lived in poverty and only 80% had access to safe drinking water?
No it isn't. We provide intelligence that we can and so do they. Israel is VERY high tech. We support our ally. the US invests in to technology here and abroad if it is in our interests...
There is a lot here I agree with. Both sides have plenty of blame to go around.Valid points... however, my underlying premise was that the "reign in the influence of Israel" efforts aren't being done any favors by having cheerleaders celebrating other problematic ideologies. People are left with the impression "So to critique Israel, I have to pretend that Palestinian & Iranian culture, left to its own devices, is some sort of beautiful thing worth embracing??"
I don't think it's a valid approach to try to critique Israeli governance by pretending that "everyone who's against Israel must be 'the good guy'"
I've used the cartel wars as an example before.
The Medellin Cartel was brutal, murderous, and lacked any and all empathy... their main rival was the Cali Cartel (who was not quite as bad, they tried to be a little less violent, but still pretty bad). I don't think someone's advocacy would be done any favors by wearing a pro-Pacho shirt to demonstrate how "anti-Escobar" they were.
As far as our involvement being the motivation for Islamic terrorism, I don't know that theory holds as much water as people think it does.
The history of conflicts with the Barbary pirates show that one doesn't need to be interventionist in order to draw Islamic ire towards those who are non-Muslim.
I still remember this infamous "Hitch-slap" in which Hitchens put Bill Maher in his place when Bill was trying to assert that the main reason Islamic fundamentalists hate us is because we intervene in middle eastern affairs.
I say all of that to basically say: It doesn't do anyone any favors to try to protest Israel's violations by giving lip service to ideologies that would be just as problematic even if Israel didn't exist.
That's why I think it's important that some mainstream critiques of Israel come from sources that aren't going to try coddle Islamism in the process.
What exactly have they developed that has been in our interests or that has helped us?
I'm aware of a few laser guiding systems and some drone tech that we've adopted from them.
Although, we're not "partners in that", we're financial backers in the R&D, then in turn, customers.
We give them tanks, missiles, no-strings-attached cash transfers, fighter jets, and $2 billion a year of defense research money.
Because AIPAC has been effective in their lobbying.However - America does prop up one side which is running the world's largest concentration camp. Why?
I fact checked the Hitchens claim, it's legit, both in the numbers of slaves the Barbary Corsairs took, as well as their ambassadors justification for why they did it.On slavery I'll take Hitchens story at face value.
But historically Western "Christian" nations also practiced slavery "based on the Bible" because it was in the economic interests to read the Bible that way.
It was written in the Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet are sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every mussulman who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise. He said, also, that the man who was the first to board a vessel had one slave over and above his share, and that when they sprang to the deck of an enemy's ship, every sailor held a dagger in each hand and a third in his mouth; which usually struck such terror into the foe that they cried out for quarter at once.
I've read good chunks of the Koran and a fair bit about Islam - but am a little rusty on its attitude to slavery. I thought the idea of kidnapping someone like that was condemned? As long as people of the book paid their tax - they were ok?
Also Iran was a fairly secure democracy until the USA decided they had no right to nationalise their oil. So they instigated that whole mess with the Shah - who the Iranians hates - which sparked the rise of the fundamentalists we have problems with today.
And the way to do that is to deny access to many of the most deadly weapons that kill large numbers of people indiscriminately, including many civilians and children.I agree with your support for Israel; we're on the same page.
US aid to Israel, whether $3 billion or $10 billion annually, is a relatively small amount.
But , If I must compromise with those who do not support unconditional aid to Israel, I am willing to make concessions. Given a choice between no aid or providing aid when needed, I would choose to provide aid to Israel.
LOL where do I start? A big one is farming...drip irrigation. Trophy Active Protection System (APS), Iron Fist Light Configuration, Common Laser Range Finder,Skystar 180, ADM-141 TALD, Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System, Reactive Armor Tiles, UAVs, AI, cybersecurity, space technologies and other military tech.
We don't give anyone anything, they BUY it or invest in it.
Parts of that quote are incorrect. It should read:I fact checked the Hitchens claim, it's legit, both in the numbers of slaves the Barbary Corsairs took, as well as their ambassadors justification for why they did it.
In March 1786, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams went to London to negotiate with Tripoli's envoy, ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman (or Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja). When they enquired "concerning the ground of the pretensions to take slaves from, and make war upon, nations who had done them no injury", the ambassador replied:
"It was written in the Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet are sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every mussulman who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise."
they could have released all the hostages too. And still refuse.It could have never happened and it has always in the power of Hamas to end it any time.
Hamas could stop attacking their own people attempting to get aid packages and food deliveries.
Hamas could stop putting rocket launchers in schools and hospitals and then scream bloody murder when innocents get killed.
Hamas could allow their people to leave area's where the Israelis warned them that military action is about to happen. Instead they have such little regard for life they use woman and children as human shields.
Hamas could stop launching thousands of rockets into civilian area's of Israel.
So why don't they?
In the original Hamas charter - they called for the elimination of the Jews - they don't want Jewish land - they want Jewish people off the face of the earth.
They have been offered two state solutions repeatedly - they have been rejected by HAMAS repeatedly - why?
They want the elimination of the Jews.
The beginning of that quote is incorrect. It should read:
"...that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority are sinners,"
The meaning isn't the same at all. The Qur'an and the teachings of Islam don't allow Muslims to wage war against non-Muslims simply because they are non-Muslims, reject Muhammad, or even if they are sinners for doing so. However, they can wage war against those who invade their territory or ignore the laws of their land.According to the national archives:
Founders Online: American Commissioners to John Jay, 28 March 1786
American Commissioners to John Jay, 28 March 1786founders.archives.gov
We took the liberty to make some inquiries concerning the Grounds of their pretentions to make war upon Nations who had done them no Injury, and observed that we considered all mankind as our friends who had done us no wrong, nor had given us any provocation.
The Ambassador answered us that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet,1 that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.
So, while the words I pasted may not have been exact, the meaning is the same.
The meaning isn't the same at all. The Qur'an and the teachings of Islam don't allow Muslims to wage war against non-Muslims simply because they are non-Muslims or becsuse they reject Muhammad. However, they can wage war against those who invade their territory or ignore the laws of their land.
The incorrect quote made it sound as if Tripoli's ambassador was saying those nations who reject the authority of Muhammad are fair game, but that's not what he was saying. He was saying that the Qur'an gives them the right to attack and enslave those who reject the authority of the Barbary nations.
Much of what you said are semantics. of course drip irrigation is used worldwide. My point was that many many good things have come from Israel. I posted specific things...I never said AI and space tech were only specific to Israel. I said WE get some of those things developed IN Israel.I mentioned the laser systems... we paid large sums for the R&D for them to develop, and then they sold it to us for $80 million. (given that we've supported them to the tune of 30 billion per decade...would've been nice to get "mates rates" on that...
You do realize we could've paid R&D teams here to develop those things right?
As far as the drip irrigation system, that was invented by an Israeli in the 60's, but that doesn't represent some sort of "two-way partnership between nations", a lot of inventions come out of a lot of countries, that doesn't make us "best buds" or "strategic allies" because we (like everyone else) decided to buy it at full retail price.
Some of the things you tossed on your list aren't even exclusive to Israel... AI and space technologies?
Israel was only the 8th country to launch satellites (surprise surprise, using stuff we gave them as the starting place), the ISA only gets $40million per year from their domestic budget, the rest of the money comes from the US, Germany, and India.
At full price like any other customer after subsidizing their development and funding the country in general. What a deal.Much of what you said are semantics. of course drip irrigation is used worldwide. My point was that many many good things have come from Israel. I posted specific things...I never said AI and space tech were only specific to Israel. I said WE get some of those things developed IN Israel.
That'd be like saying
Life in Flint Michigan in the years following the plant closures:
Unemployment rate - 22%
Infant Mortality - 8%
Maternal Mortality - 7%
Below Poverty Level - 49%
Safe drinking water - Virtually none of the public water was safe
Receiving large amounts of state and federal aid
If some entity came in, by force, and leveled a third of the schools, hospitals, grocery stores, and 70% of the homes... (and killed 6% of the population and forced another 8% to flee in the process)
Would "I didn't see you guys saying you were concerned about Flint before" be a justifiable dismissal of people's concerns?
The reality is, with all of those bad statistics you mentioned, leveling 70% of civilian infrastructure just adds "high homeless rate" and "high malnutrition rate" to that list.
Israelis are not killing anyone indiscriminately.And the way to do that is to deny access to many of the most deadly weapons that kill large numbers of people indiscriminately, including many civilians and children.
Elections have not been held in Gaza for almost twenty years.The people of Gaza and their elected officials initiated a full-scale conflict against Israel. And now that Israelis retaliated, the world blaming Israel. The hypocrisy of the antisemite is in full display.
Since 2000, Hamas has launched over 20,000 rockets toward Israel. As the elected governing authority of Gaza, Hamas represents the people residing there. On October 7, Hamas started full-scall war with Israel. Those seeking to assign responsibility should consider addressing the actions of the Palestinian government for initiating hostilities and placing civilians at risk. Israel maintains the right to defend itself and respond to threats as it deems necessary to ensure its national security.
Elections have not been held in Gaza for almost twenty years.
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