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Does the Mandelbrot Set prove the Mind of God behind what we see.

SelfSim

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I remember being terrorized by some delusional priest about the prospect of actually biting into that thing with my teeth .. (by accident or not). If I had bitten into it to polish it off, I think I'd been made to believe I would have ended being discommunicated from the human species! Kids were always assumed to be guilty of everything .. (regardless of any evidence of guilt of course).

Also, our host supplies must've been really stale .. it took ages to dissolve and I usually ended up with a gobful of drool which was impossible to retain in my mouth!
 
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partinobodycular

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Close .. its a mind exploring its own perceptions. There's no need for concerns about the source because that notion, thus far, has been the subject of never ending untestable beliefs.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around your argument, it's a work in progress. But perhaps you can help me out. You're saying that we actually perceive things, and then the mind takes what it perceives and attempts to put it into a coherent form. Is that correct? So it's in some sense a hybrid of the mind dependent reality hypothesis, in that it's a subjective interpretation of a limited input from an objective reality.

Let me know if I'm getting closer.
 
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SelfSim

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Ok .. (since you asked):
Basically .. yep
partinobodycular said:
So it's in some sense a hybrid of the mind dependent reality hypothesis, in that it's a subjective interpretation of a limited input from an objective reality.
No the Mind Dependent Hypothesis produces abundant evidence of mind dependence ... I'm not deviating from that in any way (that I'm aware of).

The distinction of objective/subjective is also a model created by the mind, in its pursuit making sense of its perceptions.
Objective reality is the outcome of testing via the scientific method (followed by inference).. and not some preconceived assumption (before testing) that it exists independently from the mind. For the purposes of establishing objectivity, that testing is all that matters.

Subjective reality is based on beliefs, where the beliefs are assumed as being real, (even when they don't stand up to tesing). Beliefs are all that matters, so reality is then established upon the belief .. and it takes a mind to create beliefs, so this way is still mind dependent.

PS: The thing to notice is that the aim is to shift our focus away from the completely untestable notion of things existing independently from our perceptions, or our minds. The latter notion of true mind independence is completely nonsensical as we need our minds in everything we think about, or sense, or try to make sense of our perceptions in saying whether something is real or not..
 
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Mountainmike

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Already stated.
The samples are determined by pathology to be recently live tissue. So they are “ life”

But They are not from a dead victim, ( for a variety of reasons)
and are inexplicable by science ( for a variety of reasons)
They appeared in real time in bread. So not progressive change in Darwin’s meaning)

So they are evidence of an alternative origin of life, to abiogenesis/evolution.
except unlike abiogenesis which is pure conjecture, this was witnessed , there is evidence in multiple cases , multiple teams and continents, evidence which was analysed.

Notice in most of my posts I am careful to say “ so called “ miracles for the reason miracle is attributing agency and science is far too limited a tool to attempt to ascribe agency .

( in comparison - Neither can science comment on agency of where gravity came from, or why it is like it is.. Science cannot enter that debate.)


We have been this way before.
You either study them or you don’t.

The EM are not the only spontaneous evidenced appearance of life Where there was none.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Creating animal tissues by "miracle" doesn't determine in anyway how life generally was created on Earth. It just doesn't. If it is a real miracle, it doesn't mean that that is how life started on Earth. If it is fraudulent, it doesn't mean a god didn't create life. It is irrelevant to the origin of Earth life and even more so to evolution.
The only EM I am interested in involves Maxwell's equations.
 
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The Barbarian

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The heart is an organ, or hadn’t you noticed. But put in context of that section, he meant organism too.

There are plenty of forensic reports on eucharistic miracles. You will find them if you care.
A bit of tissue isn't an organ. Again, your unfamiliarity with biology trips you up.

In fact, the miracle is in the substance of the bread and wine, not the accidental properties of it.

If there is an occasional miracle, in which God also changes the accidental properties of the host, it has no implications for science at all. Science does not, and cannot deny that miracles happen.
 
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The Barbarian

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So they are evidence of an alternative origin of life, to abiogenesis/evolution.
God says the earth brought forth living things. I believe Him. You should, too.
 
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stevevw

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Actually option 3 in various forms sounds like what most of the ideas like Panphysicism and its derivatives, Simulation theory, Integrated Information theory and others that make Mind fundemental are being presented in mainstream sciences.

The Mind creating reality idea has been around as long as QM and put forward by some of the pioneers of QM.
 
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Mountainmike

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God says the earth brought forth living things. I believe Him. You should, too.
Who said I don’t? I clearly do. We are arguing how not whether!

We need to separate what we believe from what there is evidence for.

Atheists find that really hard to do. Atheist scientists are by far the worst at checking in their beliefs at the door and letting evidence rule.

The entire smoke of abiogenesis is just creative smoke, there is no fire. No evidence. No mechanism. No structure. And it clearly has enormous conceptual problems with irreducible complexity when using OOL research definitions of life.
The narrative around protocells hasn’t changed or been evidenced in 50 years since proposed.
Considering the volume of money, that is pathetic.

But they try so hard to believe it, an entire pseudoscience has grown up around it, where guess is wrongly promoted to hypothesis , and weak hypothesis is called a theory.

It is a sad reflection of science in our time, that to get funding you must overstate the case, and it helps if you overstate the case for the atheist blind watchmaker , so they do. A lot of academic integrity has gone in overstating that case, and wrongly attacking other evidence if ever a religious , or spiritual context.
Anything that questions life as just chemistry Is taboo!

The only truthful answer from evidence or science is no idea where ancient life came from. For all it is just a belief.

But there is plenty of scientific evidence of new life created in OUR time.
And atheists hate it. Those here won’t even dare look. They are not alone. Several universities have refused to study it knowing the nature of samples! Some high managerial academics whose universities studied it lied about evidence that Their own academics validated!
 
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The Barbarian

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God says the earth brought forth living things. I believe Him. You should, too.

Who said I don’t? I clearly do.
That's what abiogenesis is. So we've resolved that issue.

Atheist scientists are by far the worst at checking in their beliefs at the door and letting evidence rule.
Pretty much like YE creationist preachers. That's why we don't give them much credibility on this issue.

The entire smoke of abiogenesis is just creative smoke, there is no fire.
God's word is pretty good fire, IMO. Sorry it's not your's.
The narrative around protocells hasn’t changed or been evidenced in 50 years since proposed.

There entire journals showing new evidence. That you don't know this is pathetic.


It is a sad reflection of science in our time, that to get funding you must overstate the case, and it helps if you overstate the case for the atheist blind watchmaker , so they do.
Guess how I know you've never read a research proposal.

But they try so hard to believe it, an entire pseudoscience has grown up around it, where guess is wrongly promoted to hypothesis , and weak hypothesis is called a theory.
If you understood these terms, you'd be more effective discussing them. A hypothesis has to be at least in principle, testable. It must make testable predictions. And only hypotheses that have had their predictions repeatedly verified become theories. Darwin's theory is a theory because the theory makes numerous predictions, many of which have been verified. Incidentally, abiogenesis is not one of those predictions. Darwin just assumed that God created the first living things.

But there is plenty of scientific evidence of new life created in OUR time.
Show us that. Checkable sources.
 
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Hans Blaster

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[I've removed all of your invective against scientists to limit to an actual question of concern to this forum.]

If you really want to discuss what you view as the "pseudoscience" of OOL research, then why don't you discuss actual evidence for or against the natural origin of life instead of discussing incidents that occurred at least thousands (realistically, billions) of years after the first life on our planet. No miraculous appearance of human tissue speaks to the origin of human and other animal tissue centuries (or eons) earlier.
 
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carloagal

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Yes instead, according to Wikipedia Evolution could be disproved if you could be demonstrated that a complex organ like human heart muscle tissue could be created suparnaturally or spontaneously.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Yes instead, according to Wikipedia Evolution could be disproved if you could be demonstrated that a complex organ like human heart muscle tissue could be created suparnaturally or spontaneously.

Do provide that citation and we can discuss it.
 
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The Barbarian

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Yes instead, according to Wikipedia Evolution could be disproved if you could be demonstrated that a complex organ like human heart muscle tissue could be created suparnaturally or spontaneously.
In the same sense that gravity could be disproved, if Jesus could walk on water. Which is to say, not at all. Miracles do not disprove nature.
 
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partinobodycular

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Yes instead, according to Wikipedia Evolution could be disproved if you could be demonstrated that a complex organ like human heart muscle tissue could be created suparnaturally or spontaneously.

I realize that Hans et al have been deliberately avoiding this line of argument, under the reasoning that it's irrelevant to the validity of evolution, and I can respect that, however, lest you get the idea that there are any credible claims for Eucharistic Miracles, let me set the record straight, there are none. I can understand people's reticence to resurrect this pointless, old debate, but I thought that this should at least be pointed out. Your entire argument is based on one flawed premise.

Okay, everyone may now continue as you were.
 
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The Barbarian

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I realize that Hans et al have been deliberately avoiding this line of argument
I notice that Hans' request for substantiation of a Wikepedia claim has been ignored, for reasons that seem obvious. But even if someone had put such a claim thereon, it would still be false, since miracles do not disprove natural causes.
 
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partinobodycular

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I notice that Hans' request for substantiation of a Wikepedia claim has been ignored, for reasons that seem obvious. But even if someone had put such a claim thereon, it would still be false, since miracles do not disprove natural causes.

I checked, it's there, it's supposedly from the book "The Counter-Creationism Handbook" by Mark Isaak.
 
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sjastro

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It’s unfortunate to see the term "atheist scientists" bandied around in a few posts.
Scientists of atheist or religious persuasion can work together to produce great things as the existence or non existence of God is unfalsifiable in science.

As I have mentioned on frequent occasions, you could not get two more polar opposites in Steven Weinberg and Abdus Salam in collaborating and developing the Weinberg-Salam model or electroweak theory which led them to winning the Nobel Prize in Physics.
Weinberg the militant atheist clamed religion was an insult to human dignity while Salam was a devout Muslim who referred to the Quran during his Nobel Prize banquet speech.

On the subject of fields which has also cropped up in this thread, here is a video of a physicist explaining to a biologist, the reality of particles in quantum fields which may or may not be real.
To mathematicians they are not real, physicists are divided on the subject.

 
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partinobodycular

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I've seen this video before, but since you posted it, I have a couple of questions.

#1 In what sense is it true that every point in the field has a value ascribed to it? I mean it's a 'quantum' field after all, so I would expect that if we measure any specific point in the field we'll find a definitive value there, but does it actually have a distinct value when we're not measuring it?

#2 The field was described as being 3 dimensional but modeled in only 2 dimensions, but does it actually have any extension in space and time at all, or is that simply an assumption based upon the fact that no matter where we go... there it is? Thus we're ascribing to it a dimensionality that it doesn't on its own possess?
 
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Kylie

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Given that time was one of the things that was formed in the Big Bang, I think it's a bit odd to ask what was around "before" the Big Bang.
 
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