Does Regeneration Precede Faith?

Dikaioumenoi said:

It's not incorrect. Show me how it's incorrect. The semantic core of ἑλκύω denotes a decisive movement from one position to another. We've already discussed this in another thread. You've seen my argument there. Where is your interaction with it?

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Dikaioumenoi said:

I'm not interested in trading barbs. At this point, both of you are arguing for the sake of argument. I've been more than patient in taking the time to read and respond, yet neither of you has addressed the actual arguments I've presented. Instead, you continue deflecting to peripheral issues. Until you engage the substance of my points directly, I will not be responding further.


In this conversation, I have referred you to posts #35, #75, #91, #93, #100, #118, #119, and #124. You've engaged with none of them, at least not meaningfully. So yes, I'm ignoring you at this point, because you're not here to discuss; you're here to play games. If you actually care about dialogue, start with my comments on the context of John 12 in posts #75, #93, and #100, and interact with the argument. I have repeatedly laid out an argument that answers your understanding of verse 36. Show me where the error lies, or find something better to do with your time. I have no obligation to refute bare assertions, and I won't engage further with posts that show no effort beyond that.

1 John 2:29; 4:7, and 5:1. There's been no answer. (See posts #91, #118)

John 6:44-45. There's been no answer. (See posts #35, #119, #124)

Context of John 12, cf. John 6. There's been no answer. (See posts #75, #93, #100)

That wraps things up.

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Dikaioumenoi said:

It's not incorrect. Show me how it's incorrect. The semantic core of ἑλκύω denotes a decisive movement from one position to another. We've already discussed this in another thread. You've seen my argument there. Where is your interaction with it?

I'm not interested in trading barbs. At this point, both of you are arguing for the sake of argument. I've been more than patient in taking the time to read and respond, yet neither of you has addressed the actual arguments I've presented. Instead, you continue deflecting to peripheral issues. Until you engage the substance of my points directly, I will not be responding further.


In this conversation, I have referred you to posts #35, #75, #91, #93, #100, #118, #119, and #124. You've engaged with none of them, at least not meaningfully. So yes, I'm ignoring you at this point, because you're not here to discuss; you're here to play games. If you actually care about dialogue, start with my comments on the context of John 12 in posts #75, #93, and #100, and interact with the argument. I have repeatedly laid out an argument that answers your understanding of verse 36. Show me where the error lies, or find something better to do with your time. I have no obligation to refute bare assertions, and I won't engage further with posts that show no effort beyond that.

1 John 2:29; 4:7, and 5:1. There's been no answer. (See posts #91, #118)

John 6:44-45. There's been no answer. (See posts #35, #119, #124)

Context of John 12, cf. John 6. There's been no answer. (See posts #75, #93, #100)

That wraps things up.

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Dikaioumenoi said:

What do you mean by "the way a person is drawn to Him changed"? I recently commented on John 12:32 in another thread. I'll reproduce those comments below:

John 12:32 occurs within the context of Jesus responding to the report that "some Greeks" desired to see Him (v. 20). The arrival of Gentiles signals that the redemptive focus is widening beyond Israel. Jesus interprets this event as the indication that His "hour" has come: the hour of His glorification through death (v. 23). Thus, when He says He will be "lifted up," He refers to His crucifixion (v. 33).​

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So when he says πάντας ἑλκύσω ("I will draw all people"), the phrase must be read in light of the preceding Gentile reference and the Johannine theme of universal scope of the gospel, not universal salvation (or the attempt at such). In other words, "all" here does not mean "every individual without exception," but "all kinds of people (Jew and Gentile alike) without distinction." The arrival of Greeks prompts Jesus to declare that His crucifixion will effect a drawing not limited to Jews. The verse, therefore, celebrates the inclusiveness of the atonement's scope (its sufficiency), not the universality of its effect (its efficiency).​

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In short, the "drawing" of John 12:32 refers to the world-wide proclamation of the gospel, through which all nations are summoned to faith. It is not a statement on the wooing effects of God's work on the hearts of individuals. The text is missional, not soteriological. Christ's cross will be the magnet of gospel appeal to every tribe and tongue.​

I also went on to say this regarding John 6:44:

In contrast, John 6:44 depicts a different kind of drawing. There, Jesus addresses unbelieving Jews who are grumbling over His claim to be the bread from heaven (vv. 41-43). He rebukes them, essentially telling them to knock it off (μὴ γογγύζετε), as if to declare that it is pointless for them to complain. Why? Why not just address their concerns and try to reason with them? He answers: "No one can (οὐδεὶς δύναται) come to me unless drawn," the implication being that they hadn't been, hence the reason for their persistent unbelief. The problem is not that they haven't been invited, but that they cannot believe. The issue is moral and spiritual inability, not ethnic scope.​

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Same verb as in John 12:32, but its sense differs. In John 6, the "drawing" is effectual; it infallibly results in saving faith. Grammatically, the object of "draws him" (ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν) is the same as the object of "I will raise him" (ἀναστήσω αὐτὸν), both referring back to οὐδεὶς. Thus, while the text explicitly says that the one who is drawn is enabled to come, the grammar also entails that the one who is drawn is the one who comes, believes, and is raised. In other words, the text assumes no distinction between "enabled to come" and "those who do come." It presents man in two categories: those who are unable to come, and those who, being enabled, do so. (More on the grammatical argument for this below.)​

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So the Father's drawing in John 6:44 is not the external call of gospel proclamation (as in John 12:32), but the internal, regenerative work of grace whereby the sinner's will is made willing (cf. v. 65, which restates v. 44 but replaces the verb with that of v. 37).​

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The main clause, οὐδεὶς δύναται ἐλθεῖν πρός με ("no one is able to come to me"), asserts total inability. The verb δύναται ("is able") makes ability, not willingness, the issue. The conditional clause, ἐὰν μὴ ὁ πατὴρ... ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν ("unless the Father... draws him"), introduces the single remedy for this inability: divine initiative. The construction is a present general third-class conditional, meaning Jesus is appealing to a general or axiomatic truth about humanity: mankind as a whole is naturally incapable of coming to Christ, apart from the Father's drawing.​

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The final clause, κἀγὼ ἀναστήσω αὐτὸν ἐν τῇ ἐσχάτῃ ἡμέρᾳ ("and I will raise him up on the last day"), is not part of the condition, but its logical consequence. Grammatically, the αὐτὸν ("him") in both ἑλκύσῃ ("draws") and ἀναστήσω ("will raise") refers to the same person. Thus, the one drawn is the one raised. This is easily seen if restating the logic of the verse contrapositively:​

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"If he is able to come, then the Father [has drawn] him, and I will raise him up."​

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Who is the one raised? The one enabled to come; the one drawn by the Father. We could say, theologically, that the one raised is the one who actually comes. But what the logic of John 6:44 is declaring is that there isn't a distinction. Jesus assumes no difference between those enabled to come, and those who actually do so. The drawing is effectual -- not in making people into "automatons," but in changing the disposition of their hearts such that the sin they once loved they now hate, and the God they once opposed (Rom. 8:7-8) they are now naturally inclined toward. They will as their heart desires, and their heart desires Christ.​

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This aligns with verse 37, which says, "all that the Father gives me will come to me." Interestingly, verse 65 restates verse 44, but replaces the verb with that of verse 37. That interchange of ἑλκύω ("draw") and δίδωμι ("give") indicates a paradigmatic relationship between the two verbs within parallel syntagmatic contexts, suggesting that the Father's drawing and giving are conceptually identical acts:​

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"All that the Father gives/draws to me will come to me."​

"No one can come to me unless the Father draws/gives them to me (the one drawn/given will be raised up on the last day)."​

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Dikaioumenoi said:

Where did I say Jesus wasn't referring to "all men"? What do you mean by "all men"?

I defined what "all" means in its immediate literary and redemptive-historical context, which is all men, just not individually. John explicitly introduces the approach of "some Greeks" as the catalyst for Jesus' declaration that "the hour has come" (v. 23). The Gentiles' arrival signals that the redemptive mission is expanding beyond Israel, which is precisely why Jesus now speaks of being "lifted up" to draw "all" -- that is, not just Jews.

So what are you objecting to? The claim isn't that Jesus was referring only to Gentiles. The claim is that the Gentile inclusion frames the scope of "all." The contrast is between "Israel alone" and "all nations." It's an "all men without distinction in kind," not an "all men without exception."

If πάντας meant "every individual without exception," then the statement would entail universal salvation. Jesus says, "I will draw all men to myself." ἑλκύω conveys an effective movement toward its goal, not a mere invitation.

No further engagement with my comments on John 6:44 or 12:32? Before we begin a round of "what about this verse," we should establish whether those passages have been adequately addressed. Skipping over arguments already presented doesn't advance your case. Certainly you're not suggesting that texts like Ezekiel 33:11 and 2 Peter 3:9 contradict John 6:44? Yet if you ignore the arguments already presented, your position amounts to suggesting as much. So can you demonstrate exegetically how your interpretation of those verses coheres with John's teaching there?


I'll comment briefly on this and your other citations below. I won't go into much detail until after we get some engagement on comments I've already offered on John 6:44.

God's delight in repentance does not imply human ability to repent apart from grace. The verse expresses God's moral will (His preceptive desire) that sinners turn and live, not His decretive will of election.


Again, preceptive/decretive distinction.

But also note: who is Peter addressing? "The beloved" (v. 1), whom he specifically contrasts with "the scoffers" (v. 3). When he says, "God is being patient toward you," the pronoun "you" (vv. 1-2, 8-9) is contextually distinct from "them" (3-5). The patience he describes is for the purpose of granted time for repentance, but that patience is directed specifically to "you" (μακροθυμεῖ εἰς ὑμᾶς), not to all humanity indiscriminately.

If God's patience were truly universal, one could question why Christ would ever return, since greater patience could always save more. But if the patience is directed to the elect scattered abroad ("you," "the beloved"), then the timing of His return is coherent: it occurs as soon as the last of the elect come to faith, fulfilling the purpose of that patience.

πᾶς ("all") and τὶς ("anyone") carry semantic range that must be interpreted by context. The Greek does not automatically imply every individual without exception; rather, these terms indicate the full scope of a defined group. In 2 Pet. 3:9, they are applied to those already addressed as "the beloved," not to the scoffers. μακροθυμεῖ ("he is patient") is directed εἰς ὑμᾶς ("toward you"), with the participle μὴ βουλόμενός ("not wishing") modifying that patience, and everything following it functioning as the object of his willing. In this context, τινας and πάντας are therefore understood as referring specifically to members of the beloved group (i.e., any and all of them), the scope of God's patience, not to every individual universally. What matters is what the Greek conveys in its syntactical and contextual frame, not merely the connotations of our modern English usage.


Notice that Paul is addressing those under judgment (vv. 1-3), and the passage emphasizes the temporal effect of God's patience (giving time for repentance, not universal salvific intent). The "you" in v. 4 is limited by context, just as in 2 Pet. 3:9. It does not mean God's patience is directed to every human without distinction; it is directed toward those whom God has determined to call in time, so that the exercise of repentance occurs in its proper moment.


The "desire" here is not universal salvific intent. θέλω in context is subordinate to God's overarching purposes: to display His justice and glory. Paul is talking about vessels prepared for destruction (κατηρτισμένα εἰς ἀπώλειαν), not the elect or those who will be saved. The patience is tied to God's sovereign plan for the sake of showing His glory, not an indication that all these vessels might actually repent.

I look forward to your comments on John 6:44.

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Dikaioumenoi said:

The connection to verse 20 doesn't exclude verses 25-26 or 35-36. It explains what triggered the entire discourse. The arrival of the Greeks in verse 20 is the narrative catalyst:

"Now among those who went up to worship at the feast were some Greeks. So these came to Philip... and asked him, 'Sir, we wish to see Jesus.'" (John 12:20-21)​

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John deliberately isolates this event: "Now there were some Greeks..." (δὲ marks a narrative transition). He draws attention to them as a separate narrative unit before Jesus speaks again. The significance of it is that this is the first explicit mention of Gentiles seeking Jesus in John's Gospel. Up to this point, Jesus' ministry has been almost entirely within Israel. There had been occasional foreshadowings of Gentile inclusion (e.g., John 4:42), but this is the first time Gentiles are physically present and requesting audience with Jesus.

Jesus "answers them" (ἀποκρίνεται αὐτοῖς) in verse 23, saying, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified." The Greeks' arrival is what provokes this declaration. It is the event that marks the shift from "My hour has not yet come" (2:4; 7:30; 8:20) to "The hour has come" (12:23). So the arrival of these Gentiles signifies the transition from a Jewish-restricted mission to a universal one. Everything that follows Jesus' declaration in v. 23 unfolds as His theological exposition of this turning point.

Verses 25-26 develop the implications of His glorification (the necessity of death leading to life), while verse 32 gives its climactic significance: He being "lifted up" will effect a drawing of all kinds of people: Jew and Gentile alike, not Jew only. That's why John mentions the Greeks at all. They are the narrative signal that the redemptive focus is expanding beyond Israel.

The logic of the discourse is:

vv. 20-23 - The Greeks arrive --> "the hour has come."
vv. 24-26 - The principle of life through death (the grain of wheat).
vv. 27-33 - The meaning of Christ's death: the cross as the means of universal (not Jewish-only) gospel appeal.
vv. 35-36 - The closing exhortation: believe in the Light while it is among you.

The meaning of "draws" (ἑλκύω) and the scope of those drawn are not determined by the exhortation. In this context, the verb concerns the inclusion of all kinds of people; that is, kinds without distinction, not individuals without exception. Jesus is announcing the ingathering of both Jews and Gentiles into one redeemed people, not the universal salvation (or attempt at it) of every individual. Moreover, the semantic core of ἑλκύω is forceful or powerful, not merely inviting. The core idea it expresses is the decisive movement from one state or sphere to another. Thus, when Jesus declares, "I will draw all people to myself," He is not describing a mere attempt to persuade; He is proclaiming the certain efficacy of His redemptive work: the power of the cross to extend through the gospel to all nations and to bring people of every kind to genuine faith in Him. If that "drawing" is taken to refer to individuals without exception, the text would be teaching universalism.

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Dikaioumenoi said:

1 John 5:1a reads:

πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ὅτι Ἰησοῦς ἐστὶν ὁ Χριστός, ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ γεγέννηται
("Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God")

A few grammatical observations:

First, ὁ πιστεύων is a present active participle functioning substantively: "the one who is believing." The participle presents the subject, and describes a present, ongoing activity rather than a completed act of faith.

Second, γεγέννηται, the main verb of the clause, is a perfect passive indicative: "has been begotten" or "has been born [of God]." The perfect tense is more than just a "past" tense. Its aspectual function specifically points to a completed action in the past whose effects continue into the present.

When the two forms are set in relation to each other, especially with the present participle functioning substantively -- that is, as the subject of the main verb -- the natural sense is that the person who now believes does so as one who has already been born of God. The grammar, therefore, suggests a logical ordering in which the new birth precedes the act of believing.

This does not, of course, deny the simultaneous experience of these realities in human perception, but grammatically the text places regeneration as the root (the logical grounds) and believing as its fruit.

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