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Does man need Luciver?

Kutte

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Excerpts from the drama-poetry ‘FAUST’ by Johann Wolfgang von Goethe,
one of Germany’s most prominent poets. (1710-1782)

Mephistopheles (Lucifer) speaking:
“(I am) Part of that one force,
Who will always do evil and create always good.
I am the spirit who always denies!
And rightly so, because everything being created,
Is worth to be ruined;
It would be better if nothing came into being.
Therefore is everything you call Sin,
Destruction, in short Evil,
My actual element.”

The Lord speaking to Mephistopheles:
“I have never hated the likes of you.
Of all the spirits who deny,
The scoundrel is the least of my burden.
Activities of man tend to weaken easily,
He soon loves resting unconditionally;
That’s why I like to give him a companion,
Who irritates and works and must as devil performing.”

What do you think?
 

CrystalDragon

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"Lucifer" isn't Satan if that's what you're thinking. Just a term referring to an arrogant Babylonian king in a proverb.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Interesting hypothesis, isn't it. Raises the question of why God has allowed evil to influence men from the very beginning. The implications here are that God has allowed the existence of evil since the dawn of creation in order to force us to make a choice... The problem however, is that this would insinuate God intentionally orchestrated the fall of Lucifer and the demons in order to use them as such, does it not? This appears to be the implication in the last two lines.

If, however, one took the position that once they had fallen, through no design of God but of their own free will and volition, then God could indeed be using them in this way. And it would account for why those who conform themselves to Christ's sufferings and overcome the temptations of the flesh, the world and the Devil will eventually be granted places of authority above the angels of God in eternity, since they never had to overcome such obstacles to believe, knowing God from the very outset.

Btw, for what its worth, according wikipedia Mephistopheles is actually a demon who serves Lucifer, not Lucifer himself:

Although Mephistopheles appears to Faustus as a demon – a worker for Lucifer – critics claim that he does not search for men to corrupt, but comes to serve and ultimately collect the souls of those who are already damned. Farnham explains, "Nor does Mephistophiles first appear to Faustus as a devil who walks up and down on earth to tempt and corrupt any man encountered. He appears because he senses in Faustus’ magical summons that Faustus is already corrupt, that indeed he is already 'in danger to be damned'."
 
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Kutte

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"Lucifer" isn't Satan if that's what you're thinking. Just a term referring to an arrogant Babylonian king in a proverb.

Hi CrystelDragon,

My dependable Webster's Dictionary explains that 'Lucifer' is Satan, in a theological sense.
My best
 
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Kutte

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About half the verses from each speaker stem from theological error, so it's hard to take seriously. It is a fantasy story not having much to do with reality.

Hi Greg,

True. 'FAUST' is a remarkable fantasy story. But, it promotes thinking and may also lead to wisdom.
God bless
 
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CrystalDragon

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Hi CrystelDragon,

My dependable Webster's Dictionary explains that 'Lucifer' is Satan, in a theological sense.
My best


The dictionary says that because it's a commonly used application of the term from those who clearly haven't read the Bible and/or project their own preconceived notions onto verses that don't say what they claim.
 
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Kutte

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The dictionary says that because it's a commonly used application of the term from those who clearly haven't read the Bible and/or project their own preconceived notions onto verses that don't say what they claim.

Hi CrystalDragon,
I would appreciate to present a reference to the kind of dictionary that says "that because it's a commonly used application of the term from those who clearly haven't read the Bible."
For what it's worth: My Bible says in Isaiah 14:12: "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!..."
I am sure that in view of many Bible editions out there, the name 'Lucifer' is not commonly used.
Anyway, I would argue that among many unbelievers as well as Christians the name 'Lucifer' is always being used as a reference to Satan.
God bless
 
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CrystalDragon

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Thing is, people cherry-pick that verse (well, verses 12-15) without reading the rest. If you actually read just about ALL of Isaiah 14...


3 On the day the Lord gives you relief from your suffering and turmoil and from the harsh labor forced on you,4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:

How the oppressor has come to an end!
How his fury[a] has ended!
5 The Lord has broken the rod of the wicked,
the scepter of the rulers,
6 which in anger struck down peoples
with unceasing blows,
and in fury subdued nations
with relentless aggression.
7 All the lands are at rest and at peace;
they break into singing.
8 Even the junipers and the cedars of Lebanon
gloat over you and say,
“Now that you have been laid low,
no one comes to cut us down.”


9 The realm of the dead below is all astir
to meet you at your coming;
it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you—
all those who were leaders in the world;
it makes them rise from their thrones—
all those who were kings over the nations.
10 They will all respond,
they will say to you,
“You also have become weak, as we are;
you have become like us.”
11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave,
along with the noise of your harps;
maggots are spread out beneath you
and worms cover you.


12 How you have fallen from heaven,
morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
13 You said in your heart,
“I will ascend to the heavens;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.[b]
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.”
15 But you are brought down to the realm of the dead,
to the depths of the pit.

16 Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
“Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,
17 the man who made the world a wilderness,
who overthrew its cities
and would not let his captives go home?”


18 All the kings of the nations lie in state,
each in his own tomb.
19 But you are cast out of your tomb
like a rejected branch;
you are covered with the slain,
with those pierced by the sword,
those who descend to the stones of the pit.
Like a corpse trampled underfoot,
20 you will not join them in burial,
for you have destroyed your land
and killed your people.


Let the offspring of the wicked
never be mentioned again.
21 Prepare a place to slaughter his children
for the sins of their ancestors;
they are not to rise to inherit the land
and cover the earth with their cities.

22 “I will rise up against them,”
declares the Lord Almighty.
“I will wipe out Babylon’s nameand survivors,
her offspring and descendants,”
declares the Lord.


If you don't just cherry-pick verses 12-15, like so many do, and actually read the surrounding verses, it's clear it's all a proverb against the arrogant king of Babylon. Nothing more.
 
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Kutte

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If you don't just cherry-pick verses 12-15, like so many do, and actually read the surrounding verses, it's clear it's all a proverb against the arrogant king of Babylon. Nothing more.[/QUOTE]

Hi Crystal Dragon
I appreciate your elaborate reply. Thank you.

I am used to 'cherry-pick' as well as 'out-of-context' responses. When the scripture reference in question continues with a statement such as, 'You said in your heart,“I will ascend to the heavens I will raise my throne above the stars of God";', it is hard to imagine that this kind of statement came from the human arrogant king of Babylon, unless he was suffering from a case of dire megalomania.

Therefore a reference to Satan is more fitting. Also, the very statement in the beginning of verse 12 'How you are falling from heaven,' can hardly be applied to a single human king, as well as the followng verse, "You have been cast down to the earth you who once laid low the nations!"
All of this points to an out of this world ruler. It could also be argued that the king was possessed by an evil spirit.
God bless
 
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CrystalDragon

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It's all a proverb. Proverbs often use figurative language. Let's take a look at some more modern proverbs that you might be familiar with:

"People who live in glass houses should not throw stones." - I think very few people, if any, actually live in glass houses

"The pen is mightier than the sword."
- It's not saying in a literal fight a pen and a sword would win

"Don't bite the hand that feeds you." - Dogs might do this literally, but not humans, which are the ones proverbs are told to

"Necessity is the mother of invention." - Necessity isn't literally invention's mother

"He's a lion on the battlefield" - the person isn't a literal lion, he's just strong and a good fighter

"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes." - No one literally takes another person's shoes and walks a mile in them (unless you're someone who steals other peoples' shoes)

"Every cloud has a silver lining." - Not every cloud literally does, but it's the case in proverb-talk

"It's no use crying over spilled milk." - When people cry over something trivial, it's not often literally spilled milk

"It's not over 'till the fat lady sings." - Not literal unless maybe you're doing a musical opera comedy

"Time is money." - again, a metaphor

"A chain is no stronger than its weakest link." - not in a literal sense

"All roads lead to Rome." - not every road literally leads to Rome

"Barking dogs seldom bite." - I think many dogs that are likely to bite bark quite a bit as well.

I could give many many more examples, and the point remains the same. Let's look at the points that you brought up:

"'You said in your heart,“I will ascend to the heavens I will raise my throne above the stars of God" - the second option you brought up is exactly what it is—severe megalomania. The rest of the proverb makes it clear that the king of Babylon was not a kind king, giving literally no regard to his own people and seeing himself as the most important thing in his arrogance. The next part of the proverb then goes into detail of how he will not be fondly buried like kinder kings, but he will die just like any other human king and show that despite his status, he's not so powerful after all and soon the oppressed people will be freed from his tyrannical rule.

"How you are falling from heaven," - not literally fallen from heaven, but merely, in proverb-talk (as it explicitly says it's a proverb take up against the king of Babylon), saying that he's fallen from his position of arrogance. He was a megalomaniac who had no regard for his people and saw himself as high-and-mighty, but he's been now brought down to the level of any other person

"You have been cast down to the earth you who once laid low the nations!" - he ruled over the nations like a tyrant, as if he were watching from the heavens and regarding all else as lowly, but now he's fallen from being a man of any great power at all, and people see him for who he truly is. And as is said in the end of the proverb, the Lord will waste to the land of Babylon because of what the king did.


It's all exactly the same kind of proverb-talk as the examples I gave above. It's like thinking when someone "shines like a star", they're literally blindingly bright, which is obviously not the case. If the whole section was read so people saw it was a proverb, and people had never heard of the possibility that "Lucifer=Satan", then most if not all people would see it for what the text explicitly states it is—just another proverb in the same vein as the ones I brought up (albeit longer in length).
 
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Kutte

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Dear ChristalDragon,

Oh Yes, when speaking metaphorical one can justify a lot of statements or interpret them in ways suited to certain convictions.
For instance, in my discussions with Muslims, who think that true happiness can be attained by entering paradise as described in their holy book, the Qur'an, I usually respond by telling them that true happiness can be attained by climbing a mountain while experiencing sweat, troubles and pain, in a metaphorical sense. Climbing a mountain can be compared to overcoming a challenge, any challenge.
By the way, what do you make of the following statement attributed to Satan by Goethe in his FAUST:
“(I am) Part of that one force, Who will always do evil and create always good." ???
My best
 
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