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Oh, good grief. Can you please quit playing dumb?So to be clear, are you using these texts to say that man can indeed please God in the flesh? If not, what exactly is your point?
If we are more than flesh, then there’s no reason for Paul to make a distinction. However, he does. In Romans 8 he makes a clear distinction between being in the flesh and being in the Spirit.Oh, good grief. Can you please quit playing dumb?
I give you answers and you just ignore them and ask the same question again.
Do you really believe God turns away anyone who is truly seeking? No where does it say the spirit of man can't seek God. It says we can't in the flesh, but we are more than flesh.
All mature adults have a God given “faith” ability that allows them to trust (have faith in) something or someone. We are told not to put our trust in idols like some people.Yes, the way I read the NT is the gospel is spiritual in nature. So when Paul described the human condition in Rom. 3:10-18 (the spiritual condition of the unregenerate, that is, those under sin), he is talking about their relationship with God. I get the idea that many people confuse these words with what they experience in the natural, and what they reason in their minds. So, we have people thinking they are "basically a good person," because they reason that they aren't as full of the bitterness it describes. But after a person comes into the light of the gospel and embraces the revelation of the scripture, they begin to understand just how bitter they have been in spirit. In my own experience, I thought I was essentially a happy person when I was doing my own thing. But after coming to Christ and learning how to live the Christian life, I came to realize how evil, conceited, and bitter I was, and only after years of studying scripture to understand it, I now can see clearly that I was a hater of God. I did not know that at first. So, when Paul wrote that we were dead in sin, I now see just how dead I was; it means "without God in the world." So, God must speak to a person's spirit and reveal Himself, and the way I read the NT, that only happens when a person is born of the Spirit. It is a spiritual event, not a natural one, and therefore can't be determined by natural means. This is essentially the teaching of Total Depravity. It means spiritually.
This knowledge is not mere experience. The serpent persuaded Eve to partake, which presumes that knowledge was a good thing, and Eve believed it. But we know that she was deceived. This kind of knowledge is a determination, and so there came a separation between God and man at that point, and this is why we call it "the fall." It's not a fall from grace, but a fall from God, and from a right standing with Him.
It also means we became spiritually dead, and this is what Paul is writing about in Eph. 2. The term "free will" as it is used in this forum means that human will is separated from God's will, and the implication is that it is not reconciled to God. In this sense, "free will," or autonomy, is the problem, because we were created to be led by the Spirit and be in harmony with God's will.
Gen. 3:22 "And the LORD God said, 'The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.'" This means that man was separated from God, had a will "free" from God, and determined for himself what is good and evil. So this knowledge has self-willed determination in it.
If we understand Paul's teaching in Eph. 2:1-10, the sinner can do nothing at all in regard to his salvation because he is spiritually dead - "without God in the world." And until God interrupts his life with the gospel and conviction of the Spirit, he will not do anything or choose anything in regard to his salvation. Faith in the gospel is a spiritual matter, and it takes a spiritual person to perform it.
Biblical faith is not a mere mental idea or acknowledgement of what is true, which is how the world defines it. Biblical faith finds understanding of what God says about Christ, and therefore obedience follows 100%. Not saying it can't be resisted, since it is likely we all felt and experienced resistance to the gospel message.
But obedience is the result (fruit) of faith in Christ, and the decision to submit is only made after God has revealed Himself in the message - it is a supernatural event accomplished in the spiritual dimension. The understanding about Christ needed to respond to the gospel takes God revealing Himself and what He is about to individuals.
So, the point is that an unbelieving sinner will never willing accept God's charity unless God grants him understanding of it, as Jesus said "no one can come to me except the Father draw him." This metaphor essentially means that God must give understanding to a person by making him spiritual, as 1 Cor. 2:14 teaches.
And in reference to the prodigal son, the way I understand it from Paul's teaching is that the man was born again when he "came to his senses" and realized that his father's house had blessings, and he had the hope that he could return and be accepted in some way. And that realization is the very knowledge and wisdom that only comes from above. The parable's setting is the natural realm, but teaches us spiritual truth.
TD
Y'all exchanges are like watching a reality show. Housewives of Atlanta. And you are only writing this...Some of it comes accross Haughty..If we are more than flesh, then there’s no reason for Paul to make a distinction. However, he does. In Romans 8 he makes a clear distinction between being in the flesh and being in the Spirit.
He also addressed those who seek God in chapter 3.
There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
— Romans 3:11
I’m sorry that you are experiencing frustration. It’s honestly not my intent. My intent is to hopefully show that you are making assertions that you cannot support with scripture.
He makes the distinction so he can then encourage us to follow the Spirit and not the flesh.If we are more than flesh, then there’s no reason for Paul to make a distinction. However, he does. In Romans 8 he makes a clear distinction between being in the flesh and being in the Spirit.
He also addressed those who seek God in chapter 3.
There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
— Romans 3:11
I’m sorry that you are experiencing frustration. It’s honestly not my intent. My intent is to hopefully show that you are making assertions that you cannot support with scripture.
You can’t take Paul’s comment out of context. He didn’t write it in hopes that the hearers would look up the reference.He makes the distinction so he can then encourage us to follow the Spirit and not the flesh.
And the verse you quoted is a quote from the Psalms.
The fool[a] says in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good.
He is talking about people who are fools, who have said in their heart that there is no God. This is not a statement about whether they CAN seek God or not. It's the situation of the one who refuses to.
Again, I did not say anyone can please God in the flesh. We can, however respond to him from the spirit. We were all of us unregenerate when we responded to his conviction.As to your first comment, if a Christian can’t please God in the flesh, why would you think the unregenerate could?
You are very close to supporting the heretical view of Pelagianism.
I didn’t say that they didn’t know the psalms. The point is that Paul was making a larger argument. It’s arrogant to say that he meant something else entirely.Why do you think the Hearers didn't know the Psalms? Surely they were part of the early Christians worship.
We we respond, are we in the flesh or in the Spirit?Again, I did not say anyone can please God in the flesh. We can, however respond to him from the spirit. We were all of us unregenerate when we responded to his conviction.
"You can’t take Paul’s comment out of context. He didn’t write it in hopes that the hearers would look up the reference."I didn’t say that they didn’t know the psalms. The point is that Paul was making a larger argument. It’s arrogant to say that he meant something else entirely.
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things of God. That would include the gospel."You can’t take Paul’s comment out of context. He didn’t write it in hopes that the hearers would look up the reference."
They would have known it by heart, most likely.
"The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, "
Of course, he's talking here to Christians who already have the Spirit. But because of your overall theology, you have to assume the Spirit doe not reveal himself to all people, but the verse says the Spirit searches all things.
The Spirit bridges the communication gap between ourselves and God. He searches and understands what is spiritual and makes it possible for us to perceive it. This isn't limited to just a few. The Spirit came to convict the world. John 16:8
Who doesn't God speak to? Who doesn't' God convict? Paul says even nature shows God so that men are without excuse. If God only speaks to a few, the rest have the perfect excuse.The person without the Spirit does not accept the things of God. That would include the gospel
Again, I did not say anyone can please God in the flesh. We can, however respond to him from the spirit. We were all of us unregenerate when we responded to his conviction.
Would this passage apply:Who doesn't God speak to? Who doesn't' God convict? Paul says even nature shows God so that men are without excuse. If God only speaks to a few, the rest have the perfect excuse.
Well, it is written in God's Word that no man has an excuse, (regardless if they think God spoke to them or not) ,Who doesn't God speak to? Who doesn't' God convict? Paul says even nature shows God so that men are without excuse. If God only speaks to a few, the rest have the perfect excuse.
Yes, and that's another verse where Calvinists change the meaning of "all." to mean "some."For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good
The passage you quoted said the person without the Spirit does not accept the things of God. That’s not Reformed Theology. That’s right from scripture.Who doesn't God speak to? Who doesn't' God convict? Paul says even nature shows God so that men are without excuse. If God only speaks to a few, the rest have the perfect excuse.
The context will show that all men (people) doesn’t refer to every single person, but to all types of people. Read the 10 verses before it.Would this passage apply:
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
Nope. All means all. It’s just that “all” has more than one definition. And we aren’t universalists.Yes, and that's another verse where Calvinists change the meaning of "all." to mean "some."
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