Does God Accept Imperfect Obedience?

AarontheStudent · Jul 25, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
"Make it up to Him"?! I've never herd anyone speak that way, and I certain haven't come across such concept in holy scripture, so would you mind explaining what you mean by that, please?

I don't know what you're asking for here, or exactly where your confusion lies for that matter. If it's a phrase in the Bible depicting God as directly saying, "make it up to me", you won't find it because the phrase was invented several centuries later.

But if you want scripture that supports this type of relationship with God, it's littered with it, because this was on the ancient Jewish mind for roughly 250-500 years before Christ .. for example,

"All this is from God, lwho through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation." 2 Corinthians 5:18-19

Trespasses = sins. So then what's "reconciliation"?

As a noun, reconciliation means "the restoration of friendly relations," according to Oxford Dictionaries. To best explain this idea, I'll attempt to illustrate it as the earliest Christians might have.

So we're born in God's likeness (tzelem in Jewish philosophy) -- this perfect state is defined as being whole (shalom) and therefore righteous. However, since we're only a replica of God's likeness, we lack the uniquely divine characteristic of perfection, sinlessness. Sins are described as a "transgression against the divine law." The Jewish referred to the whole of the law as Torah, which means "instruction."

Therefore sinning is viewed as going against God and his instruction -- straining our relationship with him. But.. we can have atonement (kapparah), that is "to make amends for a wrong or injury", through reconciling. Since we're the ones at fault here for sinning, the burden of 'making amends' lies on us. Our amends and restored relatidone through faith. So for every time we sin, as long as we have a relationship with God, it's been 'made up for'.

Hope that's a sufficient enough answer!

Shalom

Rick Otto · Jul 25, 2017

Hammster said:
“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:48‬ ‭

Hey!
We KNOW that already. Now we're talking about the application and experience of that in living it.
(If it it seems like I'm being hard on you it's because you have a fine mind I am used to benefitting from it.)

Rick Otto · Jul 25, 2017

Hurry up and get perfect you backsliders! It's getting cold and lonely up here on moral high ground!

jimmyjimmy · Jul 25, 2017

AarontheStudent said:
I don't know what you're asking for here, or exactly where your confusion lies for that matter. If it's a phrase in the Bible depicting God as directly saying, "make it up to me", you won't find it because the phrase was invented several centuries later.

But if you want scripture that supports this type of relationship with God, it's littered with it, because this was on the ancient Jewish mind for roughly 250-500 years before Christ .. for example,

"All this is from God, lwho through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation." 2 Corinthians 5:18-19

Trespasses = sins. So then what's "reconciliation"?

As a noun, reconciliation means "the restoration of friendly relations," according to Oxford Dictionaries. To best explain this idea, I'll attempt to illustrate it as the earliest Christians might have.

So we're born in God's likeness (tzelem in Jewish philosophy) -- this perfect state is defined as being whole (shalom) and therefore righteous. However, since we're only a replica of God's likeness, we lack the uniquely divine characteristic of perfection, sinlessness. Sins are described as a "transgression against the divine law." The Jewish referred to the whole of the law as Torah, which means "instruction."

Therefore sinning is viewed as going against God and his instruction -- straining our relationship with him. But.. we can have atonement (kapparah), that is "to make amends for a wrong or injury", through reconciling. Since we're the ones at fault here for sinning, the burden of 'making amends' lies on us. Our amends and restored relatidone through faith. So for every time we sin, as long as we have a relationship with God, it's been 'made up for'.

Hope that's a sufficient enough answer!

Shalom

I don't "make up for" my sin. Christ has done the work of mediation.

AarontheStudent · Jul 25, 2017

Or perhaps you did without realizing.

EmSw · Jul 25, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
Lately, the sheer number of posts which explicitly and implicitly state that Jesus saves only those who keep the law has been astounding. Most of those claiming such don't claim moral perfection, but quite frankly, I would have less of a problem with them if they did, because there is no such animal as imperfect obedience.

Does God accept "imperfect obedience"?

Does Christ save only those who obey the law?

Since you say there is no such thing as imperfect obedience, why did you put up a straw man as your question? Pretty easy to punch that straw man, isn't it, jimmy?

Hammster · Jul 25, 2017

Rick Otto said:
Hey!
We KNOW that already. Now we're talking about the application and experience of that in living it.
(If it it seems like I'm being hard on you it's because you have a fine mind I am used to benefitting from it.)

It was in response to someone who said God doesn't require moral perfection from His children.

Rick Otto · Jul 25, 2017

Hammster said:
It was in response to someone who said God doesn't require moral perfection from His children.

Thanks. My bad.

Rick Otto · Jul 25, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
I don't "make up for" my sin. Christ has done the work of mediation.

Yeah, absolutely.... but repentance...

jimmyjimmy · Jul 25, 2017

Rick Otto said:
Yeah, absolutely.... but repentance...

Yes. Of course. I am responsible for that, but I would never classify my repentance as "making up for" my sin.

AarontheStudent · Jul 25, 2017

The good news, other than that of Jesus Christ, is that you don't have to classify it as anything you don't want. Just understand that the phrasing is a modern way of saying to atone.

TheSeabass · Jul 25, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
Lately, the sheer number of posts which explicitly and implicitly state that Jesus saves only those who keep the law has been astounding. Most of those claiming such don't claim moral perfection, but quite frankly, I would have less of a problem with them if they did, because there is no such animal as imperfect obedience.

Does God accept "imperfect obedience"?

Does Christ save only those who obey the law?

--Keeping the OT law of Moses is not required, Christ took it out of the way making it ineffective, inactive. No one can be justified before God by the OT law, Galatians 3:11.

--Obedience to Christ's NT law is required. Not keeping law is sin, making one a law breaker.

--Imperfect law keeping/imperfect obedience is sin which God does not except. Yet God has allowed a second avenue of pardon for the Christian when the Christian is imperfect...repentance. As long as the Christian continues to walk in the light (includes repentance) the blood of Christ continues to cleanse away all sins, 1 John 1:7.

jimmyjimmy · Jul 25, 2017

AarontheStudent said:
The good news, other than that of Jesus Christ, is that you don't have to classify it as anything you don't want. Just understand that the phrasing is a modern way of saying to atone.

If you are saying that I atone for my own sin, then I couldn't disagree with you more.

holyrokker · Jul 25, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
Lately, the sheer number of posts which explicitly and implicitly state that Jesus saves only those who keep the law has been astounding. Most of those claiming such don't claim moral perfection, but quite frankly, I would have less of a problem with them if they did, because there is no such animal as imperfect obedience.

Does God accept "imperfect obedience"?

Does Christ save only those who obey the law?

Can there be an "imperfect" obedience? It seems to me that a person either obeys or disobeys.

As for Christ saving only those who obey the Law: Who can obedience to the Law save anyone?

Obedience is not necessarily conditioned upon love.

I can obey God because I love Him, or I can obey Him because I fear His judgment.

It's not the obedience that put me in a right relationship with God.

God looks for faith in His children. Of course, if we believe God, we will do as He commands.

jimmyjimmy · Jul 25, 2017

holyrokker said:
Can there be an "imperfect" obedience? It seems to me that a person either obeys or disobeys.

Bingo!

Dartman · Jul 25, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
Lately, the sheer number of posts which explicitly and implicitly state that Jesus saves only those who keep the law has been astounding. Most of those claiming such don't claim moral perfection, but quite frankly, I would have less of a problem with them if they did, because there is no such animal as imperfect obedience.

Does God accept "imperfect obedience"?

Does Christ save only those who obey the law?

First, there is a vast difference between keeping "the law", and keeping Christ's commandments.
"The Law" ... usually references the Mosaic Law, which was fulfilled/completed/taken out of the way on Christ's cross.
Second, there is a vast difference between claiming to be "saved by obedience", and acknowledging that I CAN NOT be saved WITHOUT obedience AND forgiveness!
1 John 1:8-9 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:3-4 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

AarontheStudent · Jul 25, 2017

Whether you're reconciled or not, that's up to Jesus as high priest. The act of choosing to atone, however, was out of your free will.

Tree of Life · Jul 25, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
Does God accept "imperfect obedience"?

Only that imperfect obedience which is sanctified by the representation of Christ.

Does Christ save only those who obey the law?

Our commitment to the Lordship of Christ is certainly part of our salvation. But our salvation does not depend upon our obedience nor is our obedience primary in our salvation.

OrthodoxyUSA · Jul 25, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
Lately, the sheer number of posts which explicitly and implicitly state that Jesus saves only those who keep the law has been astounding. Most of those claiming such don't claim moral perfection, but quite frankly, I would have less of a problem with them if they did, because there is no such animal as imperfect obedience.

Does God accept "imperfect obedience"?

Does Christ save only those who obey the law?

Having not read the thread...

James 2:10-13
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Paraphrase: Abandon Judaism for Christianity

Forgive me...

Albion · Jul 25, 2017

AarontheStudent said:
Whether you're reconciled or not, that's up to Jesus as high priest. The act of choosing to atone, however, was out of your free will.

I think you are misusing the word, which is why there's some confusion here.

Jesus atoned; we repent.

Does God Accept Imperfect Obedience?

שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם

The Dude Abides

The Dude Abides

Pardoned Rebel

שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם

White Horse Rider

Carpe Chaos

The Dude Abides

The Dude Abides

Pardoned Rebel

שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם

Well-Known Member

Pardoned Rebel

Contributor

Pardoned Rebel

Well-Known Member

שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם

Hide The Pain

Well-Known Member

Facilitator

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency