Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Instead of tossing out comment's like that, please, just tell me what you find disagreeable--it facilitates discussion and avoids rising tensions between people.
Instead of tossing out comment's like that, please, just tell me what you find disagreeable--it facilitates discussion and avoids rising tensions between people.
You take as evidence only things of the material world. Which is important as what we see, hear, touch etc is powerful affirmation. Yet leading into the question I had and you asked for further clarification:What brand of materialism do you mean? I'm gonna say the itinerant preacher part.
Your claim is you were a Christian. What exactly had you convinced of the Gospel previously which when you examined further did not believe? It seems you did a materialistic or physical evaluation of your faith. Yet knowing the Christian faith is based on promises from YHWH to His people. And YHWH Who is creator of all things is not subject to the physical/material bucket of His own Creation.What do you mean, what was my faith based on. I am struggling to understand your questions. I am fully ready and willing to answer, but the questions are a bit vague for a person who doesn't travel in Christian circles and use that sort of terminology.
I will definitely read it, thanks.I really don't expect you to read the following article (even though I would if it were given to me), but it's the kind of critique offered therein which gives me pause to 'rethink' the whole epistemic problem here as it relates to God and the Bible:
Science, Ockham’s Razor & God | Issue 115 | Philosophy Now
But what other evidence is there? What would you have me consider?You take as evidence only things of the material world. Which is important as what we see, hear, touch etc is powerful affirmation. Yet leading into the question I had and you asked for further clarification:
I believe that when I was a Christian. I have reconsidered the truth claims of the Bible for many reasons. I am working on a brief example that I plan on including to my information page. If interested, I have written this so far.knowing the Christian faith is based on promises from YHWH to His people. And YHWH Who is creator of all things is not subject to the physical/material bucket of His own Creation.
Everything you dismiss based on your materialistic approach.But what other evidence is there? What would you have me consider?
I believe that when I was a Christian. I have reconsidered the truth claims of the Bible for many reasons. I am working on a brief example that I plan on including to my information page. If interested, I have written this so far.
Put another way, what convinced you of Jesus as Risen Lord and Savior when you were a Christian? Was it an intellectual exercise of theological principles?
I am familiar with F.F. Bruce and Geisler, I have read only a bit of Greenleaf. I am unfamiliar with Ramsey. The problem with Greenleaf is that his dates are prior to modern historical and textual NT scholarship.Everything you dismiss based on your materialistic approach.
I am sure your first step to dismiss the Divine actions of God was to convince yourself God’s revelation to mankind, the Holy Scriptures were unreliable.
You indicated you read books which called into question the Divine authorship of Scriptures. Which would be based on a skeptic’s point of view. Did you consider any works of Norman Geisler, F.F Bruce and many other Christian NT and textual scholars? Have you read any of the works of Sir William M. Ramsey or Simon Greenleaf?
Or, as is claimed against Christians, did you just pick what would suit your own opinion?
A mixture of several factors lead to my acceptance of Jesus. First, I was raised to believe. It was cultural transmission. Second, I began reading theology and apologetics in high school. I was fond of Francis Shaffer, Cornelius Van Till, and R.C. Sproul. I was also big into a radio show called The White Hoarse Inn. This was in the early 90's. When I was in the Navy (2000-2006) I got into Josh McDowell and Lee Strobel.Why won’t you answer the below posed to you previously here?
Patience--working on it.Why won’t you answer the below posed to you previously here?
Familiar in what way? Did you read their defenses of the Scriptures? They address the 19th century Tubingen school.I am familiar with F.F. Bruce and Geisler, I have read only a bit of Greenleaf. I am unfamiliar with Ramsey. The problem with Greenleaf is that his dates are prior to modern historical and textual NT scholarship.
So are millions of Christians.I am well studied in theology and some NT Scholarship. Enough to be conversant and to address arguments based on academic papers. I do not however, read Greek, or Hebrew--I rely on translation.
God has proven every promise.You are spot on about being skeptical of revelation. That was not always the case. What convinces you the Bible is God's revelation?
What seems to come over strongly is the cultural transmission and theological principles. What were the experineces?So I'd say it was a combination of many things that lead me to faith in Jesus. Of course there were also significant experiences that seemed to confirm my faith.
I am seriously not interested in talking about theologians and scholars. I am interested in ideas. If you want to discuss a particular idea--we should do that.Familiar in what way? Did you read their defenses of the Scriptures? They address the 19th century Tubingen school.
Greenleaf was actually at the forefront.
I don't doubt that. You asked--I responded.So are millions of Christians.
What promise did he fulfill and how?God has proven every promise.
I grew up in a small mountain community church--Assembly of God. It wasn't as charismatic as others, but for a while some people spoke in tongues. I was moved to do it also. Later we moved and I attended a Nazarene church, we had a powerful youth group and lots of devout fellowship and worship. Those experiences were powerful and felt beautiful. I had some intense moments during the Iraq war that caused me to pray and trust God--that felt very powerful and spiritual--very real. Later, I got married, had kids, read family worship at home--those were joyous. There are surely many more--but those stand out.What seems to come over strongly is the cultural transmission and theological principles. What were the experineces?
I was just responding to your statements of studying skeptic scholars and how that helped convince you.I am seriously not interested in talking about theologians and scholars. I am interested in ideas. If you want to discuss a particular idea--we should do that.
Redemption.What promise did he fulfill and how?
Thank you for sharing. It seems you were once convinced of church community and personal experience.I grew up in a small mountain community church--Assembly of God. It wasn't as charismatic as others, but for a while some people spoke in tongues. I was moved to do it also. Later we moved and I attended a Nazarene church, we had a powerful youth group and lots of devout fellowship and worship. Those experiences were powerful and felt beautiful. I had some intense moments during the Iraq war that caused me to pray and trust God--that felt very powerful and spiritual--very real. Later, I got married, had kids, read family worship at home--those were joyous. There are surely many more--but those stand out.
But a question about a who doesn't get us to a what. Let's get specific. Give me a claim by one of them, or anyone, concerning the reliability of a supernatural biblical claim. I'm down to discuss it throughly.I was just responding to your statements of studying skeptic scholars and how that helped convince you.
Is this feasible with someone who denies there is a supernatural? I ask because of all the supernatural claims there were multiple eyewitnesses to the event.But a question about a who doesn't get us to a what. Let's get specific. Give me a claim by one of them, or anyone, concerning the reliability of a supernatural biblical claim. I'm down to discuss it throughly.
I don't think that video is compelling.Is this feasible with someone who denies there is a supernatural? I ask because of all the supernatural claims there were multiple eyewitnesses to the event.
Then your point would be can we trust their eyewitness accounts and the proper transmission in word and deed.
It all comes down to the skeptic to dismiss the Scriptures as reliable and that is based on your own skeptic sources. Kind of like this:
This is more of the crux of the matter. What you are suggesting is that since I do not presuppose the possibility of the supernatural, I won't believe it. Thats 100% correct. When are person presupposes something, they are including the conclusion in their premise. That is an invalid syllogistic structure. If a person wants to present a case that the supernatural is real, they must first present premises that do not contain the conclusion. I'm not sure If I am being clear--that might sound confusing and wordy.Is this feasible with someone who denies there is a supernatural? I ask because of all the supernatural claims there were multiple eyewitnesses to the event.
When are person presupposes something, they are including the conclusion in their premise. That is an invalid syllogistic structure. If a person wants to present a case that the supernatural is real, they must first present premises that do not contain the conclusion. I'm not sure If I am being clear--that might sound confusing and wordy.
I don't begin with the assumption the supernatural is real--that is what has to be demonstrated. All I can experience is the natural world.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?