Does abortion really equal murder?

Polycarp_fan said:

Watch and abortion and decide for yourself. The Silent Scream was a movie that changed me forever on abortion as birth control and a convenience. The enemies of morality always want you to ignore reality.

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Ahh, silent scream.

While we're on the subject of ignoring reality, check the facts in the link.

selfinflikted said:

No, abortion is not murder.

Muder - The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

Thing is, abortion is not unlawful. By definition, it is not murder.

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So, it's not illegal because it's not illegal? Wow... Rock solid reasoning there! That totally justifies 4500 babies being thrown a way per day in the US.

There's a reason why this is so. If the mother wished to carry the baby to full term, it would be considered manslaughter, iirc. The mother's choice (or lack of) is everything in a case like this.

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So, do you agree that if I falcon punch a pregnant woman and -I- kill her child... that's manslaughter... but if she did the same thing, it's not?

What if I'm the father... what if I want an abortion and the mother doesn't? ... but if the woman wants an abortion and the father doesn't... if SHE kills it (through induced miscarriage or having a professional chop it out), it's not? Why is it OK for one parent to kill a child without the other's permission, but not the other? Don't we live in an equal society? If both don't have to agree to it, then EITHER should be able to make the call.

So, abortion is not murder. Make up your mind.

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Abortion is killing someone. If it's premeditated, it's murder. If it's in order to physically protect yourself, it's self-defense and not punishable. Aborting a child that comes from rape is a special case that is somewhere between murder and self-defense. Similar to executing a person on death row. The executioner IS killing someone.

You are seriously demented.

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That was in response to my suggesting that "if you're unwilling to press charges, it's not rape." .... why not? Rape is a SERIOUS thing. It's a vile and horrible act. If it didn't hurt your feelings enough to press charges, it wasn't rape. It's not just a term you can use when you regret who you fooled around with at a party the other night... it's a horrible action that deserves severe punishment. If you don't want to press charges, you can't call it rape. That's NOT to excuse rape... that's to encourage people to press charges for the evil people who do that, and stop girls from cheating and passing it off as "he raped me" so they don't get in trouble.

The rape exception is stupid. If it's murder (speaking morally, not legally here), then the circumstances of conception do not change murder. If you don't really care about the fetus as much as punishing "s luts" who get pregnant outside of marriage, however, the rape exception is perfectly reasonable.

Gregorian said:

That was in response to my suggesting that "if you're unwilling to press charges, it's not rape." .... why not? Rape is a SERIOUS thing. It's a vile and horrible act. If it didn't hurt your feelings enough to press charges, it wasn't rape. It's not just a term you can use when you regret who you fooled around with at a party the other night... it's a horrible action that deserves severe punishment. If you don't want to press charges, you can't call it rape. That's NOT to excuse rape... that's to encourage people to press charges for the evil people who do that, and stop girls from cheating and passing it off as "he raped me" so they don't get in trouble.

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There are many other possibilities. Maybe the woman doesn't report it because she is too ashamed for some reason. Maybe she's afraid that the man will hurt her if she reports. Maybe it's rape by a relative, and she has horribly conflicted feelings of both hate and love for the person. I'm not saying women never falsely accuse, but rape is nonconsensual sex, regardless of whether it is reported.

The Gregorian said:

So, it's not illegal because it's not illegal? Wow... Rock solid reasoning there! That totally justifies 4500 babies being thrown a way per day in the US.

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Except I'm not aware of abortion ever being considered murder. Even when we had laws banning abortion, the crime was killing a fetus and had far different punishments (typically a few years in prison for the doctor, and less or no punishment for the mother) than murder.

The Gregorian said:

So, do you agree that if I falcon punch a pregnant woman and -I- kill her child... that's manslaughter... but if she did the same thing, it's not?

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Yes, for the same type of reasoning if are attacked and get a concussion, it is assault and possibly manslaughter (if the prosecutor feels the attack was an attempt on your life) but if you bang your head on the wall and give yourself a concussion it is not a crime.

The Gregorian said:

What if I'm the father... what if I want an abortion and the mother doesn't? ... but if the woman wants an abortion and the father doesn't... if SHE kills it (through induced miscarriage or having a professional chop it out), it's not? Why is it OK for one parent to kill a child without the other's permission, but not the other? Don't we live in an equal society? If both don't have to agree to it, then EITHER should be able to make the call.

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Because it only is a part of the body of one of the parents for nine months. If we had the means to implant the fetus into a male and have it grow to term, I'm sure the woman would not have the right to simply dispose of the fetus -- at that point I imagine the law will allow the woman to "abort" (in a way that does not harm the fetus) but the father would have the option of carrying the aborted fetus to term.

The Gregorian said:

Abortion is killing someone. If it's premeditated, it's murder.

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Actually, it depends on how you define "life". If we take your argument to an extreme, then every egg in a woman's ovaries is "alive" with its own unique DNA (even if it only has half of the helix). On the other side, we define death legally as when the brain stops functioning; logically that implies that life begins when brain functions start -- in which case most abortions are not murder (since most happen early in a pregnancy before the brain/nervous system has developed). Or, yet another legal argument would be that stillborn children are not considered people, they are not give birth certificates; as such you are not a "person" by the law until you are born, thus they cannot be "murdered".

The Gregorian said:

If it's in order to physically protect yourself, it's self-defense and not punishable. Aborting a child that comes from rape is a special case that is somewhere between murder and self-defense. Similar to executing a person on death row. The executioner IS killing someone.

That was in response to my suggesting that "if you're unwilling to press charges, it's not rape." .... why not? Rape is a SERIOUS thing. It's a vile and horrible act. If it didn't hurt your feelings enough to press charges, it wasn't rape. It's not just a term you can use when you regret who you fooled around with at a party the other night... it's a horrible action that deserves severe punishment. If you don't want to press charges, you can't call it rape. That's NOT to excuse rape... that's to encourage people to press charges for the evil people who do that, and stop girls from cheating and passing it off as "he raped me" so they don't get in trouble.

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You don't appear to understand rape or the trauma a woman who presses charges goes though. In most cases, the woman is attacked by the defense -- to a real degree it is the woman being put on trial. I cannot fault any woman for choosing not to file charges.

The Gregorian said:

What if I'm the father... what if I want an abortion and the mother doesn't? ... but if the woman wants an abortion and the father doesn't... if SHE kills it (through induced miscarriage or having a professional chop it out), it's not? Why is it OK for one parent to kill a child without the other's permission, but not the other? Don't we live in an equal society? If both don't have to agree to it, then EITHER should be able to make the call.

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While I strongly disagree with the rest of your post (see my above comment about the rights of the pregnant woman), you make a good point: How can we expect a man to (at least) pay child support, when he doesn't get a say in whether the fetus should be aborted? Isn't that a double standard? Wouldn't the pregnant woman even be able to blackmail the father at that point (i.e. "If you do what I tell you to do, I'll abort the fetus so you don't have to pay child support")? Doesn't exactly sound very fair to me (and yes, I'm a guy).

morningstar2651 said:

Ahh, silent scream.

While we're on the subject of ignoring reality, check the facts in the link.

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Let me take a wild guess, you're GLBT or an atheist. Are there ANY other Christians at this website? I feel like Lot.

Polycarp_fan said:

Let me take a wild guess, you're GLBT or an atheist. Are there ANY other Christians at this website? I feel like Lot.

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Gay rights and atheism are irrelevant to this debate.

Eleveness said:

While I strongly disagree with the rest of your post (see my above comment about the rights of the pregnant woman), you make a good point: How can we expect a man to (at least) pay child support, when he doesn't get a say in whether the fetus should be aborted? Isn't that a double standard? Wouldn't the pregnant woman even be able to blackmail the father at that point (i.e. "If you do what I tell you to do, I'll abort the fetus so you don't have to pay child support")? Doesn't exactly sound very fair to me (and yes, I'm a guy).

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That's an interesting point, and while he doesn't have the same biological stake in the pregnancy, it does seem unfair. At the same time, that means that a man could get a woman pregnant (who doesn't want to abort) and then desert her, which ultimately hurts the child. The money to take care of the child has to come from somewhere--child support isn't a punishment on the father, but a source of relief to the child.

platzapS said:

That's an interesting point, and while he doesn't have the same biological stake in the pregnancy, it does seem unfair. At the same time, that means that a man could get a woman pregnant (who doesn't want to abort) and then desert her, which ultimately hurts the child. The money to take care of the child has to come from somewhere--child support isn't a punishment on the father, but a source of relief to the child.

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I simply believe that no one should ever be forced into parenthood. Other animal species primarily have sex for procreation, but humans are different: we have sex to express our love for each other. The production of children is merely a side effect--sometimes an unwanted one. What if the father never wanted a child to result from an act of sex? I believe that he shouldn't be forced into paying child support for a child he didn't want.

Polycarp_fan said:

Watch and abortion and decide for yourself. The Silent Scream was a movie that changed me forever on abortion as birth control and a convenience. The enemies of morality always want you to ignore reality.

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"O noes! Medical procedures are icky, therefore evil!!!!."

Do you also protest dental procedures and heart transplants, or is it safe to assume that your arguement was very poorly thought out?

Polycarp_fan said:

Let me take a wild guess, you're GLBT or an atheist. Are there ANY other Christians at this website? I feel like Lot.

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Neither. What does homosexuality have to do with abortion? Last I checked they weren't getting each other pregnant very often.

I just have some healthy skepticism. I watched Silent Scream and I double-checked it's claims and found them false.

Proverbs 14:15
The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.
Proverbs 18:13
He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

The Gregorian said:

That was in response to my suggesting that "if you're unwilling to press charges, it's not rape." .... why not? Rape is a SERIOUS thing. It's a vile and horrible act. If it didn't hurt your feelings enough to press charges, it wasn't rape. It's not just a term you can use when you regret who you fooled around with at a party the other night... it's a horrible action that deserves severe punishment. If you don't want to press charges, you can't call it rape. That's NOT to excuse rape... that's to encourage people to press charges for the evil people who do that, and stop girls from cheating and passing it off as "he raped me" so they don't get in trouble.

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The horror and shame of rape, and the difficulty of proving it, make pressing charges extremely difficult for many women. Yes, all women should report rape - if only to prevent their attacker from raping again - but a common response to having been raped is a powerful desire to forget all about it, to pretend it never happened (which often means that women, in their desire to get clean in the immediate aftermath of their attack, wash away vital forensic evidence). Of course, that desire to escape the reality of rape is utterly thwarted by pregnancy, a potentially permanent reminder of the pain, degradation and fear that the woman suffered.

platzapS said:

There are many other possibilities. Maybe the woman doesn't report it because she is too ashamed for some reason. Maybe she's afraid that the man will hurt her if she reports. Maybe it's rape by a relative, and she has horribly conflicted feelings of both hate and love for the person. I'm not saying women never falsely accuse, but rape is nonconsensual sex, regardless of whether it is reported.

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1: That's a problem. If there's someone out raping women, and the women don't press charges, they're empowering him to do it to others. Yes, it's embarassing, but they need to be stopped and punished. Too often, the police will catch the guy... have him in custody, but not be able to prosecute and get him off the street because the woman's embarrassed. And their embarrassment allows them to go out and rape again. In that case, yes... it is your fault. To some extent.
2: If she's afraid he may hurt her for it, she has reason to ask for police protection, get a restraining order. There's ways to guard yourself from people you think may want to hurt you.
3: ESPECIALLY if it's a relative, they should be punished if they raped you. If what they did isn't worthy of punishment, it's not rape. They may have taken advantage of you... but "rape" is something HORRIBLE.

Rape is sex AGAINST someone's will... not just "something you didn't specifically consent to before hand." If it's just a matter of permission, it's possible for two people to rape each other at the same time. Or anyone at the bar who goes with a friend as a "wing man" is getting himself raped by sleeping with someone he didn't want.

The Gregorian said:

1: That's a problem. If there's someone out raping women, and the women don't press charges, they're empowering him to do it to others. Yes, it's embarassing, but they need to be stopped and punished. Too often, the police will catch the guy... have him in custody, but not be able to prosecute and get him off the street because the woman's embarrassed. And their embarrassment allows them to go out and rape again. In that case, yes... it is your fault. To some extent.
2: If she's afraid he may hurt her for it, she has reason to ask for police protection, get a restraining order. There's ways to guard yourself from people you think may want to hurt you.
3: ESPECIALLY if it's a relative, they should be punished if they raped you. If what they did isn't worthy of punishment, it's not rape. They may have taken advantage of you... but "rape" is something HORRIBLE.

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The irony is that your comments inadvertently trivialise the horror of rape.

cantata said:

The irony is that your comments inadvertently trivialise the horror of rape.

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I don't see how. Why should someone be able to rape someone and not have to pay for it?

If someone murders your child and is caught, are you allowed to "not press charges?"

The topic came up specifically because some people point out that abortion should be available to rape victims. I'm still very against it, but can understand their pain. But I strongly believe if a woman's going to abort a child because of the rape, she should only be able to do so if she presses charges.

The Gregorian said:

I don't see how.

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You fail to recognise that the trauma involved with rape can be prohibitive to going through the legal process of reporting it, pressing charges, and then attending hearings and so on.

Imagine that you have been raped. It was one of the most physically and emotionally painful experiences of your life. You were degraded and shamed by the words and actions of your rapist; now, you feel dirty, violated, and disgusted. You have suffered some tearing to your genital area, and bruising and bite marks to other parts of your body.

You knew your attacker; in fact, you invited him into your home. He is ostensibly an upstanding member of society. What's more, he can afford a good lawyer. You can't.

Now imagine pressing charges. First, samples will need to be taken from your genitals, so you can't wash yourself - having been raped, you have to call the police immediately, rather than do what you want to do - have a hot bath and scrub yourself clean. So you must go through the process of being poked and prodded in areas of your body which you have never wanted to cover up more than you do now. Your injuries must be photographed and described.

Then comes the long legal process. You know that the defence will claim that rough but consensual sex explains your injuries, and that you are attempting to cry rape for some spiteful reason. The precise details of your rape will be raked over in court. You will be forced to relive the horror and shame of the experience, and to what end? What evidence will you have that he forced himself on you?

Suppose he's found not guilty?

The Gregorian said:

Why should someone be able to rape someone and not have to pay for it?

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Certainly rape should not be ignored. But you seem to completely lack sympathy for those who have been raped. Pressing charges is not a walk in the park.

The Gregorian said:

If someone murders your child and is caught, are you allowed to "not press charges?"

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What has that to do with rape?

The Gregorian said:

The topic came up specifically because some people point out that abortion should be available to rape victims. I'm still very against it, but can understand their pain. But I strongly believe if a woman's going to abort a child because of the rape, she should only be able to do so if she presses charges.

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Then you will punish the most vulnerable women.

Abortion is no more murder than having a tapeworm removed.

cantata said:

You fail to recognise that the trauma involved with rape can be prohibitive to going through the legal process of reporting it, pressing charges, and then attending hearings and so on.

Imagine that you have been raped. It was one of the most physically and emotionally painful experiences of your life. You were degraded and shamed by the words and actions of your rapist; now, you feel dirty, violated, and disgusted. You have suffered some tearing to your genital area, and bruising and bite marks to other parts of your body.

You knew your attacker; in fact, you invited him into your home. He is ostensibly an upstanding member of society. What's more, he can afford a good lawyer. You can't.

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EXACTLY why it's so important. Rapists know how embarrassing it is for the victim. If the first victim doesn't want to press charges, they see how easy it is, and just get away with it, and are more likely to do it again because there's no consequence for their actions. Yes, it's difficult, but it HAS to be done. A friend of mine, just last week was raped. The guy's done it before, but he humiliated the other person so much they wouldn't press charges either. I encouraged my friend to press charges, but she refused... the guy's still free, and who knows how many people he's violated simply because the women don't want to deal with it. So the next person he rapes is PARTIALLY my friend's fault... she had every chance to stop him, but she didn't. Just like when she was raped, it was partially the fault of the prior victim who COULD have stopped it, but didn't because she was embarrassed. Yes, the world's tough some time, but people have responsibilities... even women.

Now imagine pressing charges. First, samples will need to be taken from your genitals, so you can't wash yourself

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I'm not saying women have to provide a perfect case... it's very understandable that the first thing you want to do is wash everything off. That's less effective, but understandable.... but you can not just curl up and pretend it never happened and let it happen again. Even if the guy gets off, the reputation of being accused of rape will follow him for the rest of his life. Women will know that and be on guard more. If he's close to a decent human being, even if he's not IN jail, he should be so ashamed he would never do it again... just the accusation is very powerful.

... which is a whole different conversation. Some women use the term "rape" to simply make themselves unaccountable for sleeping with someone... if they decide the next day that they regretted it, they can call the guy a rapist, and the guy may not have even realized it. Some throw around the term "rape" just because they know no one can question them, not realizing that accusation can ruin a man's life forever.

You will be forced to relive the horror and shame of the experience, and to what end?

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Oh no.... having to remember the situation in order to save others from experiencing it... poor baby. If it's something you wouldn't go through a little extra pain in order to prevent... it's not rape. If you won't so much as tell your story to have the rapist punished so he can't do it to someone else, and will likely have to experience it himself, in jail... then what happened wasn't rape.

I've had a girl all over me that had no business being there. It was embarrassing... but it wasn't so bad that I'd want her put in jail for it, therefore it wasn't rape.

Certainly rape should not be ignored. But you seem to completely lack sympathy for those who have been raped. Pressing charges is not a walk in the park.

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Just the opposite. I have an undeniable urge to protect them. But when people claim to have been raped... but when you offer to help them, they don't want any help, you can't imagine how frustrating that is. And then to see that sort of person walk around knowing he can take whatever he wants with impunity because no one would dare report him...

Then you will punish the most vulnerable women.

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How is it punishing women? If you're willing to say "I was raped, kill my child" ... but not "I was raped, make the rapist pay" ... that's a gross double-standard, is it not?

It's too embarrassing to have someone examine your genitals in order to stop a rapist, but are OK with someone shoving tools up there to chop up and vacuum out a living person in there in order for you to not have to deal with it?

So you'll kill your own child to pretend it didn't happen, but you won't inform the police to try to make it not happen again?

Do you really not see how disgusting that is?

Illuminatus said:

Abortion is no more murder than having a tapeworm removed.

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... so when a woman kills her child because she doesn't want to be a mother, it's simply her choice because the fetus is just a parasite anyway. She can freely kill the child without the father's permission... or even telling the father at all.

But when the father decides he doesn't want to be a father and kills the child... the child instantly becomes a human and it's manslaughter.

Or if some random person's pushing their way through a crowd and accidentally knocks the woman over, causing miscarriage... he can be charged with manslaughter because he's not the mother.... But when the mother kills the same thing, it's just a tapeworm.

... Either it's a tapeworm or a human.... regardless of who kills it. If a girl decides she isn't ready to be a mom, and is free to kill it because it's just a tapeworm, then the boy should be able to make the same choice... we live in an equal society after all.

The Gregorian said:

... so when a woman kills her child because she doesn't want to be a mother, it's simply her choice because the fetus is just a parasite anyway. She can freely kill the child without the father's permission... or even telling the father at all.

But when the father decides he doesn't want to be a father and kills the child... the child instantly becomes a human and it's manslaughter.

Or if some random person's pushing their way through a crowd and accidentally knocks the woman over, causing miscarriage... he can be charged with manslaughter because he's not the mother.... But when the mother kills the same thing, it's just a tapeworm.

... Either it's a tapeworm or a human.... regardless of who kills it. If a girl decides she isn't ready to be a mom, and is free to kill it because it's just a tapeworm, then the boy should be able to make the same choice... we live in an equal society after all.

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The choice to have an abortion should not be up to the man - it's not his body. But you are correct - there is a disparity in existence. However, there should be a legal procedure in place for the father of the fetus to refuse responsibility, (and therefore not be financially responsible for the child), within a certain timeframe that allows the mother to then opt to abort.

Muder - The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice

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I find it funny that you used "unlawful" as if we need a reason for it to be murder. When does murder become "lawful"? When abortion is committed it is premeditated malice because the intention is to stop a life from growing.

I absolutely believe that abortion is murder, for when it is committed, interesting how the child (some people call it embryo, fetus, a thing) no longer develop. Should they be prosecuted? Alas, here is the funny part, because our country tells women (or doctors, whomever committed the abortion) that it is okay, I don't think they should be punished but if it is overturned, then starting from the time it was overturned and continuing forward then those who commit this murder should be punished, in my opinion.