Do you support abortion?

Paidiske · Aug 25, 2023

Jesse Dornfeld said:
Okay, I didn't ask if safe delivery is possible. My question is why we should kill the fetus? You can assert that safe delivery is not always possible, but I am going to need some more specific details of when that is the case because I simply do not believe you and I are talking about the same reality.

Try to imagine this: a placental abruption has occurred (do you understand what placental abruption is?). The mother is haemorrhaging and is likely to die if action is not taken to stop it. That action will result in likely death for the foetus. That would be an example of the kind of situation I'm talking about.

Jesse Dornfeld said:
Now, you want to justify killing the fetus due to your liberal views, but that is not God's view.

Beg pardon? I am not justifying killing. But I am saying that a pro-life argument needs to not misrepresent medical reality. All that does is undermine the credibility of a pro-life position.

All Becomes New · Aug 25, 2023

Paidiske said:
Try to imagine this: a placental abruption has occurred (do you understand what placental abruption is?). The mother is haemorrhaging and is likely to die if action is not taken to stop it. That action will result in likely death for the foetus. That would be an example of the kind of situation I'm talking about.

You could do a C-section, right?

Paidiske said:
Beg pardon? I am not justifying killing. But I am saying that a pro-life argument needs to not misrepresent medical reality. All that does is undermine the credibility of a pro-life position.

You are justifying killing. The fetus is alive. It became alive when it was conceived. It's a unanimous position in the scientific literature that life begins at conception.

Paidiske · Aug 25, 2023

Jesse Dornfeld said:
You could do a C-section, right?

Not necessarily in a way that would save both lives.

Jesse Dornfeld said:
You are justifying killing.

Not at all. Recognising that there are times when both mother and child are not likely to live, and seeing a choice to favour the life of the mother as valid, is not justifying killing.

2PhiloVoid · Aug 25, 2023

Jesse Dornfeld said:
Just wondering what the percentages are for supporting or condemning abortion.

I myself feel it is the worst thing in human history since the Holocaust.

Do women who have had an abortion need grace (both from us and from our savior)? Of course! Reach out with compassion to these women. After all, we were there crucifying our messiah. If we were there we would not have done differently than the Pharisees, or political powers, or crowds even. We are guilty of the murder of Christ. As such, we should have compassion for women who know they did something wrong in having an abortion. There is forgiveness in Christ.

I'm leaving alone whether women or doctors involved in an abortion should be prosecuted. It may be at some future point in history but doesn't seem like a likely majority for some time (much like chattel slavery).

I probably will not vote in this poll.

We should probably ask just the men who made these pregnancies happen in the first place ... and see what "they" say.

More specifically, we should just ask them what they thought was the "right" answer if and when they actually caused a pregnancy in their own lives ....

By the way, I voted for option:

Yes, only for a serious medical reason for the mother (and I would add "and/or a verious serious medical complication with the pregnancy overall").

All Becomes New · Aug 25, 2023

Paidiske said:
Not at all. Recognising that there are times when both mother and child are not likely to live, and seeing a choice to favour the life of the mother as valid, is not justifying killing.

When does life begin?

2PhiloVoid · Aug 25, 2023

Jesse Dornfeld said:
When does life begin?

Being that a man and a woman who conjoin together are already alive, I think the prior, more pertinent question in this case is "how and when does life continue?"

All Becomes New · Aug 25, 2023

2PhiloVoid said:
Being that a man and a woman who conjoin together are already alive, I think the prior, more pertinent question in this case is "how and when does life continue?"

No. In fertilization, a new life is created.

2PhiloVoid · Aug 25, 2023

Jesse Dornfeld said:
No. In fertilization, a new life is created.

That's a reductionistic statement and involves a lot of unsaid insinuations that don't bear themselves out.

The fact of the matter is that "a new human being is procreated" ... and this bears many contingencies and additional social contexts which can't be severed apart.

Moreover, you should change the fifth response in your OP poll to:

No, but in the case of a serious medical reason for the mother an exception can be made.

Otherwise, the answer becomes a bit of contrived rhetoric for the mere sake of turning the semantics within a poll ...

Maria Billingsley · Aug 25, 2023

Paidiske said:
Look, honestly, it does the pro-life side no favours to peddle obvious misinformation. There are times in the third trimester where a mother's life is on the line. Placental abruption leading to haemorrhagic shock would be an example. Infection leading to sepsis would be another.

None of the poll options would quite accurately represent my position; while in general I would want to see abortion avoided if at all possible, I recognise that it isn't always possible.

I agree there should be another option in the pole. Maybe like....
No, however, the mothers life should always be taken into consideration.
Blessings

BNR32FAN · Aug 25, 2023

Jesse Dornfeld said:
Just wondering what the percentages are for supporting or condemning abortion.

I myself feel it is the worst thing in human history since the Holocaust.

Do women who have had an abortion need grace (both from us and from our savior)? Of course! Reach out with compassion to these women. After all, we were there crucifying our messiah. If we were there we would not have done differently than the Pharisees, or political powers, or crowds even. We are guilty of the murder of Christ. As such, we should have compassion for women who know they did something wrong in having an abortion. There is forgiveness in Christ.

I'm leaving alone whether women or doctors involved in an abortion should be prosecuted. It may be at some future point in history but doesn't seem like a likely majority for some time (much like chattel slavery).

I probably will not vote in this poll.

I don’t think it’s correct that we would do the same as the Pharisees in regards to Christ’s crucifixion, His disciples were certainly not supportive of it.

BNR32FAN · Aug 25, 2023

2PhiloVoid said:
That's a reductionistic statement and involves a lot of unsaid insinuations that don't bear themselves out.

The fact of the matter is that "a new human being is procreated" ... and this bears many contingencies and additional social contexts which can't be severed apart.

Moreover, you should change the fifth response in your OP poll to:

No, but in the case of a serious medical reason for the mother an exception can be made.

Otherwise, the answer becomes a bit of contrived rhetoric for the mere sake of turning the semantics within a poll ...

I agree, I was skeptical to choose number 5 for that very reason because I believe in some situations abortion would be moral but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it would be moral in all cases where the mother’s health is at risk.

stevevw · Aug 25, 2023

SeventhFisherofMen said:
The only time i struggle with the thought of abortion is if it saves the life of the mom, but then i know who am i to choose who lives and dies, me choosing to take the life off a baby to save the mom, if it's God's time for the mom and the baby will live, oh this is so tough. I choose no as the option but i fear moms passing because of child birth. When i was married i was always afraid of my wife having health problems if she had a kid.

This gave me a thought of when there was atime in our history where mothers died in child birth. In some ways they gave their life for another. I am not sure of the stats but I would say it was reasonable common for a women to either die or become gravely ill from child birth,

So to imagine that couples but especially women were faced with this prospect that there was a reasonable chance they would not survive having a child that they still chose to get pregnant. Maybe nto chose all the time as there was no contraception. But still that was something on their minds be concerned about. That they were willing to possibly give up their life to create life.

2PhiloVoid · Aug 25, 2023

stevevw said:
This gave me a thought of when there was atime in our history where mothers died in child birth. In some ways they gave their life for another. I am not sure of the stats but I would say it was reasonable common for a women to either die or become gravely ill from child birth,

So to imagine that couples but especially women were faced with this prospect that there was a reasonable chance they would not survive having a child that they still chose to get pregnant. Maybe nto chose all the time as there was no contraception. But still that was something on their minds be concerned about. That they were willing to possibly give up their life to create life.

Not all women who become pregnant have been willing agents in that process.

Can you imagine a woman who lived, say 1400 years ago, and who was raped, then having to contemplate not just the horror of her rape experience but also having to face the possibility (30% +/-) of dying while in labor with that child?

I can't. And as a man, I'm not going to speak for women. All I'm going to do ethically is take into consideration our modern medical knowledge and ask how we can help women who are facing serious physical or psychological risks in relation to their current preganancies.

AV1611VET · Aug 25, 2023

I voted:

Yes, only for a serious medical reason for the mother.

Anything else is murder.

2PhiloVoid · Aug 25, 2023

AV1611VET said:
I voted:

Yes, only for a serious medical reason for the mother.

Anything else is murder.

Let it not be said that AV can't be reasonable...

AV1611VET · Aug 25, 2023

2PhiloVoid said:
Let it not be said that AV can't be reasonable...

One interesting side note to this is the fact that, had Jacob taken that stance, then Israel would have been missing a tribe.

Genesis 35:16 And they journeyed from Bethel; and there was but a little way to come to Ephrath: and Rachel travailed, and she had hard labour.
17 And it came to pass, when she was in hard labour, that the midwife said unto her, Fear not; thou shalt have this son also.
18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

All Becomes New · Aug 25, 2023

BNR32FAN said:
I don’t think it’s correct that we would do the same as the Pharisees in regards to Christ’s crucifixion, His disciples were certainly not supportive of it.

I suppose you are one of the lucky apostles of Jesus then, eh?

2PhiloVoid · Aug 25, 2023

AV1611VET said:
One interesting side note to this is the fact that, had Jacob taken that stance, then Israel would have been missing a tribe.

Genesis 35:16 And they journeyed from Bethel; and there was but a little way to come to Ephrath: and Rachel travailed, and she had hard labour.
17 And it came to pass, when she was in hard labour, that the midwife said unto her, Fear not; thou shalt have this son also.
18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

But when applying our interpretive thinking caps, we know that in reading this passage passively, it isn't mandating an outcome of decision for all time; it's simply describing what did happen in Rachel's case.

As if there was anything Jacob could have done medically if God did nothing ...

AV1611VET · Aug 25, 2023

2PhiloVoid said:
But when applying our interpretive thinking caps, we know that in reading this passage passively, it isn't mandating an outcome of decision for all time; it's simply describing what did happen in Rachel's case.

Very true.

2PhiloVoid said:
As if there was anything Jacob could have done medically if God did nothing ...

Also true.

dogs4thewin · Aug 25, 2023

I would not choose an abortion except maybe to save my own life, BUT I do feel that early term abortion should be a legal option say before 12 or 16 weeks for the reason that people will do it anyway and without a legal option it would be even more dangerous for the mom than it already is. also feel though that adoption should also be presented as more of an option if a woman does not want the baby instead of pushing abortion.

Do you support abortion?