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Do you have to believe in every word of the NT to be considered Messianic?

anisavta

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It's one thing for a Jew to curse another Jew on the freeway. It's quite another for a Gentile so called Christian to say things like this:
"
Accordingly, it must and dare not be considered a trifling matter but a most serious one to seek counsel against this and to save our souls from the Jews, that is, from the devil and from eternal death. My advice, as I said earlier, is:
First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire...
Second, that all their books-- their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible-- be taken from them, not leaving them one leaf, and that these be preserved for those who may be converted...
Third, that they be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to give thanks, to pray, and to teach publicly among us and in our country...
Fourth, that they be forbidden to utter the name of God within our hearing. For we cannot with a good conscience listen to this or tolerate it..."
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
No Desert Rose - I will not cut one slack who wants to destroy my own People in the name of Jesus.
 
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Desert Rose

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I have found with age comes mellowing out. That which was so vitally important when I was 25 that I'd argue fret and stress barely receives a raised eyebrow now.
ha, makes me want to be that mellowed age now! i still get all worked up over issues
********
Anisavta, I hear you, he was a real putz. Imi dearest says that "I am being kind and compassionate enough to humanity" lately, so i increase kindness and tolerance . Dont know where the hippie rethoric comes from at the ripe old age of 64, but she usually has a point

I thought maybe ML just lost his mind at the end, or something.... There were lots of people like him, sadly.
 
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Lulav

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An excellent argument counselor!
 
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Lulav

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I wish I could believe that, but I think it was more than that. Far from maturity, it was about a man who wanted to get his own way. Someone that would go up against the RCC is definately one who won't back down, thinking they are always right, (he must have been an iNTJ)

He started out wanting to 'convert' the Jews to what he believed they should believe. When that didn't work and his plan to be the one in history to turn them to their Messiah, his true feelings could not be held back, and he let loose. It had to be their fault of course because he should have been able to convince them, had they been reasonable people.

Anyone that calls for burning G-ds word, I don't care what else they've written, it in league with the devil, period. And for him to say that we are devils, well that is very telling isn't it?

There is only one that wants to forbid or keep us from praising G-d and I'll give you one guess. Funny how he is telling 'Christians' to not allow Jews (from Judah, meaning 'praise' ) to not praise G-d!
 
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yedida

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The majority of mainstream christianity would argue with me, but I think ML is a perfect picture of someone who lost/threw away his salvation. For it is plainly stated in 1 John that if there is hatred in your heart for your brethren (I consider that to be all other human beings) then the love of God is not in you. No love of God = no salvation. (Was he truly saved before, in his youth? He says yes, and it's not our job to judge yea or nay. Did he retain his salvation with such venomous hatred in him, it's not scriptural.)
Just my personal opinion (don't forget I'm a "feeler.")
 
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rsduncan

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I define who is "my bretheren" somewhat differently:


...
 
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yedida

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I define who is "my bretheren" somewhat differently:
...

I have absolutely no argument with your assertion whatsoever.
Perhaps there's a different level of consideration, but man was created in the image of God, therefore all humanity is (at least for the most part) deserving of common courtesy and dignity, caring and love.
 
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rsduncan

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Agreed!!!
 
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visionary

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We may not be throwing pearls before swine.. but even dogs get crumbs from the Master's table... love your neighbors...
 
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ContraMundum

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I dont see why we shouldnt cut that boy Martin some slack. He had a good heart, some anger issues,his brain maybe went a bit off in the later years.
Do you know how you and I gonna be if we live to see our old days?

As usual, DR, you are right. You know more about Martin Luther than the "experts" here do. He was very pro-Jewish in his early years- and was criticized for it- and was very anti-Jewish in his later years - and is criticized for it, and yet urged kindness towards the Jews in his last ever sermon (something not very well known)

The fact of the matter is this: can anyone name one single Christian leader of the 1500's that was not anti-semitic? Just one? Nope. I have checked and checked....not a single person prepared to be nice to the Jews. Yet, we have "Jesus was a Jew", and "How Christians Should Regard Moses" written in that time. So, ironically, the only "pro-Jewish" literature I have found from that era was written by....Martin Luther! This is proof that truth is stranger than fiction!

There is a very strange desire by many here to try to paint the myth that Luther was the worst of all the anti-semites. I believe this is because he is a high-profile figure, and every word he spoke seems to have gained an audience. However, as I have found, in the 1500s, there is not a single Christian teacher who was kind to the Jews. This was a sign of the times. I can't, for this reason, blame old Luther as the cause of the woe of the Jews. He tried- against the tide- to urge kindness to the Jews, at least for time, until the pressure of living under a death sentence got to him and he lashed out once more like his peers against the Jews. At least he demonstrated some change of heart four days before his death. Can't say that for the rest of Christendom.
 
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ContraMundum

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Unfortunately for you the majority of Christians would disagree with you because they know more about the facts of the matter.

Luther was a man of his time (see above post of mine) but also, his infamous work "The Jews and Their Lies" was an exegesis of texts found in the NT, in particular:

"Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.
And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers,
Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept.
And if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him, and secure you.
So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day." (Matt 28:11-15)

Note: this is from the most Jewish of the Gospels.

Luther was stating that this was still the common argument against Christ in His day. He considered this to be a terrible lie against Him.

So, to many, this fervent defense of the Gospel and the words of Matthew is a sign of faith and salvation.

However, there is more to this, as you would guess. This paper of Luther's was rather weak and poor for his high standards, and Lutheran scholars to this day pretty much say it isn't worth the paper its printed on. He wrote it in uncertain conditions in the years when his life was pretty tough. Some historians have noted that it was written around the same time that the banks held the Saxon government in a position that was almost blackmail, when it was trying to form a Christian welfare system under the request of the Reformers. Guess who the banks were owned by? I think this is an interesting hypothesis.

For the record, I think TJaTL is awful and shows a lack of control. But I also think Luther was not much good after 1534, and I would not recommend anything of his after approximately that time without caution. He lost his edge and was under too much pressure.
 
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Lulav

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The problem with this rebuttal is that this only shows that Luther like other Christians did not know how to put the blame where it should have been.

Just like the old standby: 'The Jews killed Christ' which has put a curse on our whole people instead of a faction, he also bought into this lie.

Jewish or not the book of Matthew has been copied to say what they wanted to believe, regarding Jews in general. Ask anyone 40 and up or who lived before the information age, when they discovered that Jesus was Jewish.

I have a bit of trouble in other areas of Matthew 28 but won't go into that here, but I think there is some consensus that this was not in the original.
Being that we do not have any extant manuscript (MS) which contains all of Matthew dating prior to the fourth century. Nor do we find any MS prior to this time that contains Matthew 28.

Also I highly doubt that any Roman soldier, let alone more than one could be bought off by the Sadducees to basically confess they fell down on the job, this would be a death sentence for them.
 
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ContraMundum

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Jewish or not the book of Matthew has been copied to say what they wanted to believe, regarding Jews in general.

Let me get this right....you don't believe in Paul...and now you don't believe in Matthew either?

What's left?

Can you prove this, or is it just what the latest higher critical craze is saying these days? How can we tell which bits of Matthew are reliable and which aren't?

This is ok to the liberal theology field...but I have my doubts about secret hidden conspiracy theories and Bible texts. I just don't think we can base our faith on conspiracy theories and speak of crimes against the Word of God without the names, dates and motives of the antagonists.

Ask anyone 40 and up or who lived before the information age, when they discovered that Jesus was Jewish.

What would that prove? Ignorance of the Bible is common on many points. Most people probably don't even know Moses was Jewish, and in fact, most people think he never existed anyway- it's all a myth to them.

I have a bit of trouble in other areas of Matthew 28 but won't go into that here, but I think there is some consensus that this was not in the original.

First I've heard of this consensus. But, then again, many of these in such consensual groups are outside of the faith anyway.

Being that we do not have any extant manuscript (MS) which contains all of Matthew dating prior to the fourth century. Nor do we find any MS prior to this time that contains Matthew 28.

Nothing special about that. Common to many texts- even parts of the Tanach.

I can't agree with your assertion here, but even if I did, I would say that anyone who has a problem with the late completion and compilation of a Gospel text should throw their Torahs out the window- when speaking about the Torah we're talking about a work not finished and compiled until the Babylonian exile! That's about 700-800 years after Mt. Sinai and only God knows how long after Noah! Apply the same standard and I would say the Torah is going to be very very unreliable.

It's about faith in the end...and a lot of people play favorites.


Also I highly doubt that any Roman soldier, let alone more than one could be bought off by the Sadducees to basically confess they fell down on the job, this would be a death sentence for them.

I don't have a problem with it. The Talmud tells us that those times were among the worst times for morality in Israel, so I can see the religious authorities bribing others. (Also, it is not likely that the soldiers were in fact Roman. More likely local conscripts in the service of Rome, as was typical in most regions. Those conscripts were not known for obedience and loyalty, especially in the Holy Land.)
 
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Lulav

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Let me get this right....you don't believe in Paul...and now you don't believe in Matthew either?

What's left?
Where in G-ds word does it say I have to believe in any man but Messiah? Anyway, as far as Matthew, I only brought up one chapter which has been contested. We were speaking of this in another thread about Mary and the woman touching Yeshua. Matthew is the only one that shows the woman grabbed at his feet. It also sounds different than the rest, and even looks like an addition.

Can you prove this, or is it just what the latest higher critical craze is saying these days? How can we tell which bits of Matthew are reliable and which aren't?
As far as reliability, that has been studied. As I said there aren't any existent mss that contain 28 before the 4th century. So it can't be proved or disproved either. There are other things contested in that chapter as well, I am just stating what I found odd.

Who said anything about 'secret hidden conspiracy theories'? I do believe in a force against G-d at work on this earth, that which does, among other things, carries out plans to keep the truth from us. Think what you will of this but if this weren't so we would all not be in a fallen state and everything would be hunky dorry!




What would that prove? Ignorance of the Bible is common on many points. Most people probably don't even know Moses was Jewish, and in fact, most people think he never existed anyway- it's all a myth to them.
I was not speaking of 'most people' but of Christians in general. I have seen it on this very forum, so it is not about ignorance but what is being taught in seminaries and regurgitated from the pulpit. No offense but this is what happens.



First I've heard of this consensus. But, then again, many of these in such consensual groups are outside of the faith anyway.
Outside of the faith? meaning what? Not believing what the church teaches or not believing period?

Who would you believe?



Nothing special about that. Common to many texts- even parts of the Tanach.
That may be true, but there are many important points of church doctrine contained in this one chapter. Wouldn't you agree?

I'll get into a discussion about the canon later, but suffice it for now that I will not throw out any of the bible. I don't think you can apply the same standard as you are speaking about two groups of people. One that was given these words directly from G-d and the other that took this for their own. We do have the DSS that can show us what was being used at the time of Yeshua.

It's about faith in the end...and a lot of people play favorites.
Yes this is true, but the only favorite should be something that has something more than faith to back it up.


I was saying that they would have done this, but I don't think the soldiers would have been bought off. As far as obedience and loyalty, I think if you life is at stake it doesn't matter. The problem lies in this being about a few corrupt government officials and a whole nation being colored by their doings.
 
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