Do you have "rights"?

Ps145 · Jun 19, 2007

Adammi said:
Would quoting the Quran prove to you that the Quran is true?

First, your question doesn't make sense in this context. We are not talking about true, we are talking truth.

In order for it to have power as truth, it would have to be inherently truthful and completely factually accurate as originally written. While it has truth in it, it is not truth.

Jesus is the Way, the TRUTH, and the Life. He is the incarnate Word of God. HIS word is truth.

Satan's plan all along was to make himself "like God". He is a counterfeit, as are all of his works. The closer they resemble the real thing, the greater his ability to deceive people with his counterfeits.

The close similarity of the counterfeits is what gives them their appeal. But make no mistake. They are still counterfeits, and have no real value, except in the parts that happen to contain unfiltered truth. Still, those parts do not make the whole truth.

Our forefathers recognized that to a large degree, and that is why they ask for "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God", when you go to be a witness in a court of law.

Rom. 10:17
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Heb. 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I am not swayed by counterfeits.

Electric Skeptic · Jun 19, 2007

Ps145 said:
First, your question doesn't make sense in this context. We are not talking about true, we are talking truth.

That doesn't even make sense. 'True' and 'truth' are just different forms of the same word - 'true' is the adjective, 'truth' is the noun. If something is true, it is a truth, by definition.

Ps145 said:
In order for it to have power as truth, it would have to be inherently truthful and completely factually accurate as originally written. While it has truth in it, it is not truth.

I have no idea what this means.

Wiccan_Child · Jun 19, 2007

Ps145 said:
First, your question doesn't make sense in this context. We are not talking about true, we are talking truth.

The only difference is 'this verse is true' and 'The entire Qu'ran is true'.

Ps145 said:
In order for it to have power as truth, it would have to be inherently truthful and completely factually accurate as originally written. While it has truth in it, it is not truth.

Ps145 said:
Jesus is the Way, the TRUTH, and the Life. He is the incarnate Word of God. HIS word is truth.

Jesus was a figure who is believed to exist ~2000 years ago, and there are doubts as to whether he existed at all, let alone whether he was of divine origin.

Ps145 said:
Satan's plan all along was to make himself "like God". He is a counterfeit, as are all of his works. The closer they resemble the real thing, the greater his ability to deceive people with his counterfeits.

The close similarity of the counterfeits is what gives them their appeal. But make no mistake. They are still counterfeits, and have no real value, except in the parts that happen to contain unfiltered truth. Still, those parts do not make the whole truth.

This is all part of the Christian mythos. Unless you can back it up, I'm afraid it'll remain that way.

Ps145 said:
Our forefathers recognized that to a large degree, and that is why they ask for "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God", when you go to be a witness in a court of law.

Rom. 10:17
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Heb. 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I am not swayed by counterfeits.

The hilarious thing is that the Qu'ran says the same thing about the Bible.

Ps145 · Jun 19, 2007

Micah 5

10 "In that day," declares the LORD,
"I will destroy your horses from among you
and demolish your chariots.

11 I will destroy the cities of your land
and tear down all your strongholds.
12 I will destroy your witchcraft
and you will no longer cast spells.
13 I will destroy your carved images
and your sacred stones from among you;
you will no longer bow down
to the work of your hands.
14 I will uproot from among you your Asherah poles [g]
and demolish your cities. 15 I will take vengeance in anger and wrath
upon the nations that have not obeyed me."

The Lord rebuke you. And indeed, it is Him and His word that rebukes you, not me.

This day the Lord is giving you a choice, forsake the wickedness of your witchcraft and find His mercy and forgiveness, or suffer His punishment. He gives you the freedom to choose your own destiny. Choose wisely.

CCGirl · Jun 19, 2007

We have rights that we give ourselves. No need to drag a god into it.

us38 · Jun 19, 2007

Ps145 said:
The Lord rebuke you. And indeed, it is Him and His word that rebukes you, not me.

No, you quoted some 1st century sheep herder who claimed that the words were from god. You'll notice that not a single book in the bible is titled "The gospel according to god" or "The gospel according to Jesus". At best, you have second hand accounts.

Wiccan_Child · Jun 20, 2007

Ps145 said:
Micah 5

10 "In that day," declares the LORD,
"I will destroy your horses from among you
and demolish your chariots.

11 I will destroy the cities of your land
and tear down all your strongholds.
12 I will destroy your witchcraft
and you will no longer cast spells.
13 I will destroy your carved images
and your sacred stones from among you;
you will no longer bow down
to the work of your hands.
14 I will uproot from among you your Asherah poles [g]
and demolish your cities. 15 I will take vengeance in anger and wrath
upon the nations that have not obeyed me."

The Lord rebuke you. And indeed, it is Him and His word that rebukes you, not me.

Until you can validate his existance, I'm afraid it's just you making idle threats.

Ps145 said:
This day the Lord is giving you a choice, forsake the wickedness of your witchcraft and find His mercy and forgiveness, or suffer His punishment. He gives you the freedom to choose your own destiny. Choose wisely.

The wickedness of my witchcraft? I do hope you are not talking to me. I have never harmed another with my witchcraft.

Ps145 · Jun 21, 2007

us38 said:
No, you quoted some 1st century sheep herder who claimed that the words were from god. You'll notice that not a single book in the bible is titled "The gospel according to god" or "The gospel according to Jesus". At best, you have second hand accounts.

Micah didn't live in the first century.

Micah 1:1
"The word of the LORD that came to Micah of Moresheth in the days of Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah"

The passage from Micah 5 is part of what God told Micah to say to the people, and if God is God, which He certainly is, He was and is able to make sure it was written down exactly as it was stated.

God claims the bible is His word, and here is what He has to say about His word.

Hebrews 4:12,13
"For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account."

Ps145 · Jun 21, 2007

Wiccan_Child said:
Until you can validate his existance, I'm afraid it's just you making idle threats.

The wickedness of my witchcraft? I do hope you are not talking to me. I have never harmed another with my witchcraft.

I'm making no threat. I'm telling you what God says about your conduct, and what He will do in response to your conduct. I don't have to be able to prove God's existence for God to be able to carry out His plans. Nor do I have to prove God's existence for Him to carry through on what He says He will make happen.

Yes. I am speaking to you. God says witchcraft is an abomination, and He makes no distinction between types of witchcraft.

Deuteronomy 18:10-12
"There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you."

You only think you haven't hurt anyone, because you don't understand the spritual realm. The lesson of Ai is that secret sin causes harm to others. Joshua 7

God will cull you out, just like He did Achan, and you will give an answer for your abomination at that time.

us38 · Jun 21, 2007

Ps145 said:
The passage from Micah 5 is part of what God told Micah to say to the people, and if God is God, which He certainly is, He was and is able to make sure it was written down exactly as it was stated.

You're ignoring the distinct possibility that Micah just said the bible was the word of god, when it actually wasn't. Tell me, if I write something down and claim that god is speaking through me, do you believe it?

God claims the bible is His word, and here is what He has to say about His word.

God never makes that claim. People say that god makes that claim, then use the supposed claim to prove the claim is true. It's circular logic at it's finest. You cannot use the bible to prove that it's the word of god.

Ps145 · Jun 21, 2007

If it showed the signs of inspiration and was tested for accuracy for over 2 millenia the way Micah's report has been, and it was authenticated as actually being from God in the way his was, very probably I would.

The test of scripture isn't what some man has to save about it, it lies in it's ability to accomplish the purpose for which God sends it forth:

Isaiah 55
8 “ For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD.
9 “ For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.
10 “ For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven,
And do not return there,
But water the earth,
And make it bring forth and bud,
That it may give seed to the sower
And bread to the eater,
11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

You are still limited by your narrow minded approach to an Almighty God. He isn't limited by my inability to prove what you are seeking to have proved. If you want it proved to you, go to God and tell Him to prove it. I'm not God, just one of His many imperfect spokesmen. My flaws do not cripple Him, nor limit His ability to act on His own. And He certainly is not going to go away and cry because you futily shake your fist at Him. "HE" IS GOD. "HE" IS ALMIGHTY. And like it or not, you WILL answer to HIM, not me.

Your argument is with God, and no matter how many times you outwit another human being, you will never outwit God. And in the end, you will beg for mercy.

It's just like the old commercial about car filters where the mechanic says, "pay me now, or pay me later", but you're definitely going to pay. The thing is, paying now is much cheaper. It only costs you your humility now. Wait too long and it will cost you an eternity in eternal torment.

Wiccan_Child · Jun 21, 2007

Ps145 said:
I'm making no threat. I'm telling you what God says about your conduct, and what He will do in response to your conduct.

You assume, of course, that what you read in your Bible is the word of your god. Since I do not believe that it is, why do you quote it to me? Surely, if you truely wish to inform me of your god's opinions and reactions concerning my conduct, and thus adequately deter me from my wicked path, you must first convince me that the words you speak are, in fact, the words of your god.
That is, I am nonplussed by your god's words, because you have yet to verify them as anything more than quotes from a storybook.

Ps145 said:
I don't have to be able to prove God's existence for God to be able to carry out His plans. Nor do I have to prove God's existence for Him to carry through on what He says He will make happen.

Yes. I am speaking to you. God says witchcraft is an abomination, and He makes no distinction between types of witchcraft.

Deuteronomy 18:10-12
"There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you."

Once again, these words are meaningless to me unless you can verify their divine origin.
Also, I am curious as to why a Bronze Age tribe in the Middle-East would condemn a primarily Northern European spirituality; could it be that what the translators meant by 'witchcraft' differs from what we mean by it? What, exactly, is the direct translation?

Ps145 said:
You only think you haven't hurt anyone, because you don't understand the spritual realm.

The irony, of course, is that while I work extensively in 'the spiritual realm', you have had no such contact besides prayer. Methinks it is you who does not understand it.

Ps145 said:
The lesson of Ai is that secret sin causes harm to others. Joshua 7

Secret sin? Whatever do you mean?

Ps145 said:
God will cull you out, just like He did Achan, and you will give an answer for your abomination at that time.

My abomination? Surely this implies a physical creation of mine. I've made some magickal things, sure, but they're hardly abominations. Protective amulets, healing poppets, small wax tablets; are these so feared by your god?

us38 · Jun 21, 2007

Ps145 said:
If it showed the signs of inspiration and was tested for accuracy for over 2 millenia the way Micah's report has been, and it was authenticated as actually being from God in the way his was, very probably I would.

And where is Micah verified as you claim it has been?

If you want it proved to you, go to God and tell Him to prove it.

Believe it or not, I once believed everything you do. But when I needed god, god either didn't care, or wasn't there.

My flaws do not cripple Him, nor limit His ability to act on His own.

The problem being, of course, that god has never been verified to act on it's own.

And He certainly is not going to go away and cry because you futily shake your fist at Him. "HE" IS GOD. "HE" IS ALMIGHTY. And like it or not, you WILL answer to HIM, not me.

Petty threats from a petty man.

Wait too long and it will cost you an eternity in eternal torment.

Any god that would damn its creation to hell for acting exactly like it intended is not worthy of worship. No one choses what they believe. I could no more make myself believe in god than I could make myself believe in leprechauns.

Diane_Windsor · Jun 24, 2007

Yes I have rights.

See the United States Constitution.

Ps145 · Jun 24, 2007

us38 said:
Any god that would damn its creation to hell for acting exactly like it intended is not worthy of worship. No one choses what they believe.

God gave man free will. You do choose you own fate. If you are damned, it is by your own choice, as He won't force His will upon you. The warnings against sin are for the purpose of protection. If you choose of your own accord to ignore those cautions, that, again, is on you.

It's like ignoring a sign that says bridge out ahead, running through the barriers, and proceeding as if no warning was given. When you crash to the bottom of the drink it's nobody's fault but your own. You've had the warnings, and ignored them, so you suffer the consequences. There will be no crying about it being someone else's fault. You make your own bed.

Ps145 · Jun 24, 2007

Diane_Windsor said:
Yes I have rights.

See the United States Constitution.

Saw it. Studied it. Studied what the scripture has to say about it. Came to the conclusion the constitution, which was written by fallible men, is wrong. See first post in thread.

The Bellman · Jun 24, 2007

Ps145 said:
Saw it. Studied it. Studied what the scripture has to say about it. Came to the conclusion the constitution, which was written by fallible men, is wrong. See first post in thread.

Read the first post in the thread, written by a fallible man. Came to the conclusion that it was wrong, and we have rights given to us by the society we have created.

CCGirl · Jun 24, 2007

In 1948, this was proclaimed as an outline for basic human rights and it still stands today. Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Tynan · Jun 24, 2007

What is a 'right' ?

Tynan · Jun 24, 2007

Ps145 said:
. . . . the constitution, which was written by fallible men, is wrong. . . . .

Unlike the Bible which was written by God in American.

Do you have "rights"?

Do you have rights

Yes (If yes, please explain why, and the source of your authority to claim such rights.)

No

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