Do you have "rights"?

It has more to do with you not recognizing the source, claiming it to be obscure, than having the wisdom of years to understand the complexity of the issue. But even so, having first attempted to tackle the issues in the passage some 30 years ago, I find a new appreciation for the significance and depth of what is being said each time I revisit it.

you are so old

RecoveringPhilosopher said:

you are so old

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I would respectfully suggest you go back and read my initial post on the subject in full, this time taking the suggestions to God in prayer to see what He has to say as opposed to looking for a way to win a debate.

Ps145 said:

I would respectfully suggest you go back and read my initial post on the subject in full, this time taking the suggestions to God in prayer to see what He has to say as opposed to looking for a way to win a debate.

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I would, except I just remembered that God isn't real. Oh, I was a Christian, smart guy, but in retrospect, it always seemed that trying to get an answer from God was like trying to see faces in the clouds.
You didn't read my (much shorter) post, why should I give you the same courtesy?
Why do you have such trouble accepting human rights as a social construct? No one ever claimed the Bill of Rights applied to God. Or do you just hold these rights in such a low regard that you want everyone else to not care about them either?

Ps145 said:

It has more to do with you not recognizing the source, claiming it to be obscure, than having the wisdom of years to understand the complexity of the issue. But even so, having first attempted to tackle the issues in the passage some 30 years ago, I find a new appreciation for the significance and depth of what is being said each time I revisit it.

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Yes, I agree. Experience is vital and I apologize for being so quick to speak earlier in the thread. I just don't believe that these scriptures are to be interpreted to mean that God created humans unequally. Interpreted literally, I think that St. Paul was simply trying to say that each person is created by God to do different things, somethings that are viewed honorable by society and some things that are viewed dishonorable by society.

I believe that all of scripture is obscure. You supply this scripture to prove your point and someone else can use another to prove the contrary. I think that the Bible as a whole is obscure and it should never be used as a proof text.

RecoveringPhilosopher said:

..I was a Christian..

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Herein lies the problem. Did you used to be the son of your parents and now you are not? Of course not. No matter what you do, including killing them, spitting on their grave, pretending they don't exist, changing your name, denying your inheritance, disobeying them, or any other thing you could possibly do to deny them; you will always and forever be the child of your parents.

Likewise, when born of the Spirit, an irrevesible act in time occurs. Either you get born into the family of God, or you do not. If you are born into the family of God, you forever remain a son of God forever, just the same as you forever remain a son of your physical parents.

Therefore, either you are a child a the King, or you never were a child of the King.

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (not ever, never) believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

That verse clearly states that if you are condemned, it is because you have never had faith in Christ. You didn't have it and lose it. That faith in Christ is reliance upon Him for salvation, trusting in Him and Him alone for your deliverance, and you ceasing all effort, (at least for that moment), to in any way earn or merit salvation.

When you do have that faith and belief in Christ for even an instant, that is when the new birth, that irreversible act in time occurs, and you are forever sealed with the Holy Spirit into the family of God.

Rom. 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Settle that question first, then we can revisit the others.

Adammi said:

I believe that all of scripture is obscure. You supply this scripture to prove your point and someone else can use another to prove the contrary. I think that the Bible as a whole is obscure and it should never be used as a proof text.

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I respectfully disagree.

II Tim. 3:16,17. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

If God did not intend for us to understand scripture, He would not instruct us as follows:

II Tim:2:15 "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

In other words, you have to work at it. It doesn't just fall into your lap.

Ps145 said:

Herein lies the problem. Did you used to be the son of your parents and now you are not? Of course not. No matter what you do, including killing them, spitting on their grave, pretending they don't exist, changing your name, denying your inheritance, disobeying them, or any other thing you could possibly do to deny them; you will always and forever be the child of your parents.

Likewise, when born of the Spirit, an irrevesible act in time occurs. Either you get born into the family of God, or you do not. If you are born into the family of God, you forever remain a son of God forever, just the same as you forever remain a son of your physical parents.

Therefore, either you are a child a the King, or you never were a child of the King.

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (not ever, never) believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

That verse clearly states that if you are condemned, it is because you have never had faith in Christ. You didn't have it and lose it. That faith in Christ is reliance upon Him for salvation, trusting in Him and Him alone for your deliverance, and you ceasing all effort, (at least for that moment), to in any way earn or merit salvation.

When you do have that faith and belief in Christ for even an instant, that is when the new birth, that irreversible act in time occurs, and you are forever sealed with the Holy Spirit into the family of God.

Rom. 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Settle that question first, then we can revisit the others.

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Yay no-true-scotsman fallacies. By your standards, the only people that are definitely christian are dead. Because, if they're alive, then they could change in the future, and if they change, they never really were christians.

Ps145 said:

I respectfully disagree.

II Tim. 3:16,17. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

If God did not intend for us to understand scripture, He would not instruct us as follows:

II Tim:2:15 "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

In other words, you have to work at it. It doesn't just fall into your lap.

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You're assuming the bible is infallible to prove that the bible is infallible. Do you see any problems with that?

Ps145 said:

Herein lies the problem. Did you used to be the son of your parents and now you are not? Of course not. No matter what you do, including killing them, spitting on their grave, pretending they don't exist, changing your name, denying your inheritance, disobeying them, or any other thing you could possibly do to deny them; you will always and forever be the child of your parents.

Likewise, when born of the Spirit, an irrevesible act in time occurs. Either you get born into the family of God, or you do not. If you are born into the family of God, you forever remain a son of God forever, just the same as you forever remain a son of your physical parents.

Therefore, either you are a child a the King, or you never were a child of the King.

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (not ever, never) believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

That verse clearly states that if you are condemned, it is because you have never had faith in Christ. You didn't have it and lose it. That faith in Christ is reliance upon Him for salvation, trusting in Him and Him alone for your deliverance, and you ceasing all effort, (at least for that moment), to in any way earn or merit salvation.

When you do have that faith and belief in Christ for even an instant, that is when the new birth, that irreversible act in time occurs, and you are forever sealed with the Holy Spirit into the family of God.

Rom. 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Settle that question first, then we can revisit the others.

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So, how would you define a Christian such that no ex-Christians exist?

I used to adhere to the Nicene Creed, but no longer do, so by most peoples' consideration, I would be considered an ex-Christian.

Ps145 said:

Herein lies the problem. Did you used to be the son of your parents and now you are not? Of course not. No matter what you do, including killing them, spitting on their grave, pretending they don't exist, changing your name, denying your inheritance, disobeying them, or any other thing you could possibly do to deny them; you will always and forever be the child of your parents.
Likewise, when born of the Spirit, an irrevesible act in time occurs. Either you get born into the family of God, or you do not. If you are born into the family of God, you forever remain a son of God forever, just the same as you forever remain a son of your physical parents.
Therefore, either you are a child a the King, or you never were a child of the King.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (not ever, never) believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
That verse clearly states that if you are condemned, it is because you have never had faith in Christ. You didn't have it and lose it. That faith in Christ is reliance upon Him for salvation, trusting in Him and Him alone for your deliverance, and you ceasing all effort, (at least for that moment), to in any way earn or merit salvation.
When you do have that faith and belief in Christ for even an instant, that is when the new birth, that irreversible act in time occurs, and you are forever sealed with the Holy Spirit into the family of God.
Rom. 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
Settle that question first, then we can revisit the others.

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You're going to have to irrefutably establish the existence of God, and you must establish that the bible is true for what you have said to be taken seriously

RecoveringPhilosopher said:

You're going to have to irrefutably establish the existence of God, and you must establish that the bible is true for what you have said to be taken seriously

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You forgot a period for your sentence recovering.

What did you get for your birthday?

ExistencePrecedesEssence said:

You forgot a period for your sentence recovering.

What did you get for your birthday?

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My birthday's in October. I just felt weird giving CF my birthday.

Everyone knows that the last period is optional

I don't have to explain where they come from. They are inherent to my being.

I exercise the rights i am granted by the leaders of the state. I vote on who will lead the state. Ergo i give myself my own rights.

Fear said:

So, how would you define a Christian such that no ex-Christians exist?

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That's like asking me to define an "ex-human" which is no longer a human being but use to be, even though he/she hasn't died.

The new birth isn't some abstract concept. It's a real event that takes place in time, complete with an irreversable spiritual geneology.

RecoveringPhilosopher said:

You're going to have to irrefutably establish the existence of God, and you must establish that the bible is true for what you have said to be taken seriously

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No I don't. That's not my job. And I'm already taken seriously because God is not limited by my inability to prove His existence; nor is His word limited by my inability to prove it's truthfullness and infallibility as originally authored by Him.

Ex. 3:14
And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

John 8:58
"Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”"

Jesus Christ is the great I AM who told Moses to tell the people God's name is I AM. He didn't say prove it. He said tell them.
__________________________________________________________

Isaiah 55:1-11
"“Ho! Everyone who thirsts,
Come to the waters;
And you who have no money,
Come, buy and eat.
Yes, come, buy wine and milk
Without money and without price.

Why do you spend money for what is not bread,
And your wages for what does not satisfy?
Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good,
And let your soul delight itself in abundance.

Incline your ear, and come to Me.
Hear, and your soul shall live;
And I will make an everlasting covenant with you—
The sure mercies of David.

Indeed I have given him as a witness to the people,
A leader and commander for the people.

Surely you shall call a nation you do not know,
And nations who do not know you shall run to you,
Because of the LORD your God,
And the Holy One of Israel;
For He has glorified you.”

Seek the LORD while He may be found,
Call upon Him while He is near.

Let the wicked forsake his way,
And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
Let him return to the LORD,
And He will have mercy on him;
And to our God,
For He will abundantly pardon.

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

“For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, And do not return there, But water the earth,
And make it bring forth and bud,
That it may give seed to the sower
And bread to the eater,

So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.""

And again, II Tim. 3:16 "All scripture is God breathed..."

Saying it isn't won't make it go away or limit it's effectiveness.

Ok, he's even not making any pretense of intellectual honesty. I'm done with this thread.

No I don't. That's not my job. And I'm already taken seriously because God is not limited by my inability to prove His existence; nor is His word limited by my inability to prove it's truthfullness and infallibility as originally authored by Him.

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Would quoting the Quran prove to you that the Quran is true?