Do you believe in predestination ?

Ligurian · Apr 1, 2022

Ligurian said:
... προορισας seems to only exist in Paul and Luke... It doesn't show-up in any Ancient Greek document... none that I've ever found. Frankly, I don't know what to do with that word, so I don't do anything with it. Instead, I follow the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven given to the Galilean Disciples.

Brightfame52 said:
So do you believe predestination is taught in the word of God ?

Pandora's Box

"THE DOUBLE PREDESTINATION TO HOLINESS AND SIN
The question whether there is a double predestination to both holiness and life and sin and death, or only a single predestination to holiness and life, was raised in the fifth and sixth centuries, during the Semi-Pelagian controversy, and afterward in the ninth century, in the controversy between Gottschalk and Ratramnus on the one side, and Rabanns Maurus and Hinemar on the other. The stricter Augustinians affirmed the predestinatio duplex to both holiness and sin; the milder affirmed only the single predestination to holiness. Both alike, however, opposed the synergistic Semi-Pelagianism. The Calvinistic reformers and the Calvinistic creeds asserted the twofold predestination. The Westminster Confession declares it plainly."
Calvinism: pure and mixed; a defence of the Westminster standards: Shedd, William Greenough Thayer

"Les écrits de saint Augustin et de Fulgence, mal inter-
prétés, devinrent, pour le moine Gottschalk, comme autre-
fois sous la plume du prêtre gaulois Lucidus, la source
des opinions les plus exagérées sur la prédestination. Fils
du comte Saxon Bernon, destiné, dès le bas âge, au cloître
par ses parents, Gottschalk fut obligé, en vertu du principe
posé par le concile de Tolède : Monachum facit aut pro-
pria confessio aut paterna devotio, de prononcer entre les
mains de Raban Maur, et contre son gré, les vœux monas-
tiques. Inquiet, mécontent, il chercha du calme et des
consolations dans l'étude. Retiré au couvent d'Orbais, en
France, il fit de saint Augustin l'objet de ses méditations
habituelles, et finit par imaginer un système sur la prédes-
tination entièrement opposé aux idées du grand docteur
de l'Église, mais étayé de quelques-unes de ses proposi-
tions les plus hardies. Il y a, dit Gottschalk, une double
prédestination (gemina prœdestinatio), en vertu de laquelle
Dieu a destiné une partie des hommes à la béatitude,
l'autre à la damnation. Dieu ne veut pas le salut de tous
les hommes; il ne veut que celui des élus, seuls objets de
sa miséricordieuse rédemption."
Full text of "Histoire universelle de l'Église"

Brightfame52 · Apr 4, 2022

TedT said:
Yeah, so I have been saying...

Since you obviously cannot answer my question:
"What is there about HIS sovereign will that denies HIM the power TO CHOOSE to let us choose by our free will which relationship we want to have with HIM, family or enemy?",

I will provide my own answer:
"Nothing... There is absolutely nothing about HIS sovereign will that denies HIM the power TO CHOOSE to let us choose by our free will which relationship we want to have with HIM, family or enemy!"

Your vain repetitions of dogmatic statements do not provide any certainty to their truthfulness.

So you are saying predestination is according to the will of man, its his choice, and Gods choice is subservient to mans, and God wanted it that way.

Brightfame52 · Apr 4, 2022

TedT said:
BY HIS SOVEREIGN WILL HE gave us a free will and the task to use that free will to decide for ourselves our eternal fate...so how does this make HIS will subservient to ours when HE chose by HIS SOVEREIGN WILL what we should do with our free will???

Okay, so again you say that Gods predestination is according to mans will, thats what it boils down to. I believe that is grave error though.

Brightfame52 · Apr 4, 2022

John Mullally said:
I addressed predestination from Bible (per Ephesians 1:1-5) among other things in post 238 and you did not specifically address it. Perhaps you were not predestined to address my points in post 238.

Receive is the key term. God does not push salvation onto anyone.

Anyone can receive God's gift of salvation by following the instructions from Peter to the crowd in the latter portions of Acts 2.

Again, it appears to me you dont receive the biblical teaching of predestination. I have made my points with the posts I made in the thread, and you are posting things contrary, correct ?

Brightfame52 · Apr 4, 2022

Ligurian said:
Pandora's Box

"THE DOUBLE PREDESTINATION TO HOLINESS AND SIN
The question whether there is a double predestination to both holiness and life and sin and death, or only a single predestination to holiness and life, was raised in the fifth and sixth centuries, during the Semi-Pelagian controversy, and afterward in the ninth century, in the controversy between Gottschalk and Ratramnus on the one side, and Rabanns Maurus and Hinemar on the other. The stricter Augustinians affirmed the predestinatio duplex to both holiness and sin; the milder affirmed only the single predestination to holiness. Both alike, however, opposed the synergistic Semi-Pelagianism. The Calvinistic reformers and the Calvinistic creeds asserted the twofold predestination. The Westminster Confession declares it plainly."
Calvinism: pure and mixed; a defence of the Westminster standards: Shedd, William Greenough Thayer

"Les écrits de saint Augustin et de Fulgence, mal inter-
prétés, devinrent, pour le moine Gottschalk, comme autre-
fois sous la plume du prêtre gaulois Lucidus, la source
des opinions les plus exagérées sur la prédestination. Fils
du comte Saxon Bernon, destiné, dès le bas âge, au cloître
par ses parents, Gottschalk fut obligé, en vertu du principe
posé par le concile de Tolède : Monachum facit aut pro-
pria confessio aut paterna devotio, de prononcer entre les
mains de Raban Maur, et contre son gré, les vœux monas-
tiques. Inquiet, mécontent, il chercha du calme et des
consolations dans l'étude. Retiré au couvent d'Orbais, en
France, il fit de saint Augustin l'objet de ses méditations
habituelles, et finit par imaginer un système sur la prédes-
tination entièrement opposé aux idées du grand docteur
de l'Église, mais étayé de quelques-unes de ses proposi-
tions les plus hardies. Il y a, dit Gottschalk, une double
prédestination (gemina prœdestinatio), en vertu de laquelle
Dieu a destiné une partie des hommes à la béatitude,
l'autre à la damnation. Dieu ne veut pas le salut de tous
les hommes; il ne veut que celui des élus, seuls objets de
sa miséricordieuse rédemption."
Full text of "Histoire universelle de l'Église"

So do you believe in predestination ?

John Mullally · Apr 4, 2022

Brightfame52 said:
Again, it appears to me you dont receive the biblical teaching of predestination. I have made my points with the posts I made in the thread, and you are posting things contrary, correct ?

I do not accept your view of the teaching of predestination as being biblical. It ignores the fact that God desires all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4) and that Jesus gave himself as a ransom for many (1 Timothy 2:6). If God is in the business of assigning everyone's eternal destiny (some up and some down), that would contradict those two verses.

Constantly repeating that yours is the biblical interpretation does not make it so. When disagreements occur, intelligent people add to or clarify their own supporting arguments or point out the flaws in the other person's arguments.

Ligurian · Apr 4, 2022

Ligurian said:
Pandora's Box

"THE DOUBLE PREDESTINATION TO HOLINESS AND SIN
The question whether there is a double predestination to both holiness and life and sin and death, or only a single predestination to holiness and life, was raised in the fifth and sixth centuries, during the Semi-Pelagian controversy, and afterward in the ninth century, in the controversy between Gottschalk and Ratramnus on the one side, and Rabanns Maurus and Hinemar on the other. The stricter Augustinians affirmed the predestinatio duplex to both holiness and sin; the milder affirmed only the single predestination to holiness. Both alike, however, opposed the synergistic Semi-Pelagianism. The Calvinistic reformers and the Calvinistic creeds asserted the twofold predestination. The Westminster Confession declares it plainly."
Calvinism: pure and mixed; a defence of the Westminster standards: Shedd, William Greenough Thayer

"Il y a, dit Gottschalk, une double
prédestination (gemina prœdestinatio), en vertu de laquelle
Dieu a destiné une partie des hommes à la béatitude,
l'autre à la damnation. Dieu ne veut pas le salut de tous
les hommes; il ne veut que celui des élus, seuls objets de
sa miséricordieuse rédemption."
-- Full text of "Histoire universelle de l'Église"

"There is, says Gottschalk, a double predestination (gemina predestinatio), by virtue of which God has destined a part of men to beatitude, the other to damnation. God does not want everyone to be saved men; he only wants that of the elect, the sole objects of his merciful redemption."
{translateDOTgoogleDOTcom}

Brightfame52 said:
So do you believe in predestination ?

(thanks for making me do the research)

Pandora's Box, pt.2

"Quid mihi necesse est pro salute mea et vita aeterna laborare? quia si bonum fecero, et praedestinatus ad vita non sum, nihil mihi prodest; si autem malum agero, nihil mihi obest, quia praedestinatio Dei me tacit ad vitam aeternam pervenire."
--Hrabanus Maurus, quoting Gottschalk of Orbais
Monumenta Germaniae historica inde ab anno Christi quingentesimo usque ad annum millesimum et quingentesimum

"What must I need for my salvation and eternal life? because if I do what is good, and am not predestined to life, it profits me nothing. But if I do evil, it does nothing for me, because God's predestination silently prevents me from reaching eternal life."
--translateDOTgoogleDOTcom

Versus this:

“Whenever I am called upon to speak upon moral training and the course of holy living, I am accustomed first to display the power and quality of human nature and show what it is able to accomplish, and then from this to incite the mind of the hearer to (some) forms of virtues, lest it profit nothing to summon to those things which it would have thought to be impossible for it." ...
“But we say that man is (always) able both to sin and not to sin, so that we confess ourselves to have always a free will" (Pel. in his confession).
“Freedom of the will . . . consists in the possibility of committing sin or of abstaining from sin” (Jul. in Aug. op. imp. i. 78). ...
“For God, wishing to endow (his) rational creature with the gift of voluntary good and with the power of free will, by implanting in man the possibility of either part, made that to be his own which he may choose, in order that, being by nature capable of good and evil, he might choose either and bend his will to either the one or the other” (Pel. ad Dem. 3, cf. de lib. arb. i., ii., in Aug. de gr. Chr. 18. 19; 4. 5). ...
"By no means can I be without the possibility of good" (Pel. lib. arb. iii. in Aug. degr. Chr. 4. 5).
-- Seeburg, Text-book of the history of Doctrines, v1, p.333
Text-book of the history of doctrines : Seeberg

Brightfame52 · Apr 5, 2022

John Mullally said:
I do not accept your view of the teaching of predestination as being biblical. It ignores the fact that God desires all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4) and that Jesus gave himself as a ransom for many (1 Timothy 2:6). If God is in the business of assigning everyone's eternal destiny (some up and some down), that would contradict those two verses.

Constantly repeating that yours is the biblical interpretation does not make it so. When disagreements occur, intelligent people add to or clarify their own supporting arguments or point out the flaws in the other person's arguments.

Okay, fair enough, you dont accept my understanding of predestnation, and I dont accept yours, for it makes Gods predestination subservient/inferior to mans will.

John Mullally · Apr 5, 2022

Brightfame52 said:
Okay, fair enough, you dont accept my understanding of predestnation, and I dont accept yours, for it makes Gods predestination subservient/inferior to mans will.

Your perspective is that it makes man subservient to God's will.

If I give the car keys to my son and instruct him to be home by a certain hour, am I making myself subservient to him?

It makes no sense for the the Bible to be chock full of directives if people have no free will. And how does God hold men responsible, if He did not make them response able?

Brightfame52 · Apr 5, 2022

John Mullally said:
Your perspective is that it makes man subservient to God's will.

If I give the car keys to my son and instruct him to be home by a certain hour, am I making myself subservient to him?

It makes no sense for the the Bible to be chock full of directives if people have no free will. And how does God hold men responsible, if He did not make them response able?

Yes God's will is supreme over man's will.

BNR32FAN · Apr 5, 2022

Brightfame52 said:
This is the million dollar question. Most in mans religions dont believe in this doctrine, or they believe it in a man centered way that deny the Sovereignty of God, but nevertheless its a Salvation Doctrine. In a book and chapter primarily about Salvation Paul writes Eph 1:3-6

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Rom 8:28-30

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Theres no word of Salvation without predestination.

Then how do people fail to remain in Christ as He stated in John 15:1-7?

Brightfame52 · Apr 5, 2022

BNR32FAN said:
Then how do people fail to remain in Christ as He stated in John 15:1-7?

Why are you changing the subject? Do you understand the Op?

BNR32FAN · Apr 5, 2022

Brightfame52 said:
Why are you changing the subject? Do you understand the Op?

I’m not changing the subject my question is pertaining to predestination. How can predestined people turn away from Christ and if they weren’t predestined how could they be in Christ in the first place if no one comes to Christ unless The Father draws them?

Brightfame52 · Apr 6, 2022

Predestination is the sovereign, eternal, immutable, unalterable purpose of God almighty, by which he ordained and ordered, according to his own will and good pleasure, all things that come to pass in time.

Predestination is God’s purpose.

Rom 8:28

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Eph 1:11

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

2 Tim 1:9

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Brightfame52 · Apr 6, 2022

BNR32FAN said:
I’m not changing the subject my question is pertaining to predestination. How can predestined people turn away from Christ and if they weren’t predestined how could they be in Christ in the first place if no one comes to Christ unless The Father draws them?

Predestined people cant turn away from Christ, not if they have been predestinated to be conformed to His Image. Rom 8:29-30

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

rwe2156 · Apr 7, 2022

Its a very hard thing to reconcile. Our concept of God as loving and merciful won't allow those thoughts to settle in.

"All" can refer to either every single person without exception, or every single person without distinction.

Suffice it to say every believer is predestined to salvation, not all will be saved. God ordains what he wills, and wills what he desires.

If its man's fault, then you have to accept man is also the determiner of his salvation, the most erroneous assumption anyone can have. The changed heart WILL accept the gospel, the hardened heart will not.

If the only way to believe it is to blame God, its best to not to go there, and just accept the mystery of the gospel to convict. Paul instructed on quite clearly. The answer is "Heaven's no!!"

Brightfame52 · Apr 7, 2022

Speaker Craig Thurman wrote on predestination not being based on works or faith:

D. N. Jackson wrote a book entitled ‘The Doctrine of Divine Election, Calvinism and Arminianism Examined.’ In this book you will find this statement: ’ God has predestinated that believers shall be saved ...’ Is that a true statement? If we will compare it to the word of God the answer is no, it is not a true statement. Doss Nathan Jackson (July 14, 1895 – November 29, 1968) was a Baptist pastor from the United States who was fundamental in the founding of the North American Baptist Association (now the Baptist Missionary Association of America). To the point, the Bible nowhere says that God predestinates believers. Now this might sound a little strange to the ears at first because we know that believers are predestinated or else they would never have believed. But the statement is confusing and misleading. What folks usually mean when they make a statement like this is that God predestinates some because they have believed, and that is not true. As a matter of fact it’s a lie and here’s why. That statement takes a result or an effect of predestination and turns it into a cause for predestination. Why the very same thing is done by those who say that God foreknew or foresaw who would believe. Well, of course He foreknew them that believed or else they would not be of those that shall believe. Again, what folks usually mean by saying something to this effect is that God foreknew them that believed because God saw they would believe. However, the Bible says nothing concerning faith as the moving cause of God’s act to foreknow someone to salvation. The truth is that the foreknowledge of God is not based on whether one shall have faith in Christ. This kind of reasoning presents the absurd mental image of a tail chasing the dog rather than what we are all familiar with, which is the dog chasing his tail. It is this kind of reasoning that is applied to some very important Bible doctrines. We need to pay close attention to what the Bible teaches or else we could be turned away from its truths and into great errors by what appears to be to us only seemingly small, insignificant details. So, what does the Bible teach about predestination? The Bible says that God predestinated those which he foreknew. Read it for yourselves in Ro 8:29: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

First, I’d like to point out that the objective case pronoun ‘whom’ refers to someone, not something. God foreknew someone. In other words God cast His special forethought upon a certain person. And, second, notice here that predestination is applied to those that God foreknew. Nothing here says that predestination was because one was a believer or because of faith. Referring once again to the Scriptures which is the only source for deriving the faith of Christ, we find predestination applied to those which God elects. In Eph.1.3-5 it is written: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. Like we read in Romans chapter 8 predestination is applied to those which God chose (elected) before the foundation of the world. To be chosen by God before the foundation of the world means that before there was anything of this present age founded (this refers to the whole universe) God alone chose to save a people for His name’s sake. So what have we gleaned from the word of God so far? We have gleaned that God predestinated those upon whom he set His eternal thought and upon whom He acted with an eternal act ... to save. The foreknowledge of God and His election of grace have nothing to do with any good or evil that the person known or chosen will do. NOTHING. Now, there’s no question that God knew from eternity all the good and evil every person would ever do throughout all of human history. But that knowledge is not foreknowledge. It is omniscience. So the acts of men are excluded from the issue of God’s foreknowledge of some to salvation. We just read in the Ephesian text that God’s election of grace was that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love. Therefore election assumes holiness and blamelessness are lacking in those elected unto salvation. Essentially the same idea is stated Ro.9.11: For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth … Election isn’t determined by the elected but by the Elector.

TedT · Apr 7, 2022

rwe2156 said:
Suffice it to say every believer is predestined to salvation, not all will be saved.

This predestination does not mean either to force an end to their life by HIS will OR to predict their life's end from their own free will choices...how does this not successfully rendered predestination to be meaningless??

TedT · Apr 7, 2022

rwe2156 said:
If its man's fault, then you have to accept man is also the determiner of his salvation, the most erroneous assumption anyone can have.

Not if you don't mix up salvation with election as being the same under the same rules...

Brightfame52 · Apr 8, 2022

Craig goes on to write:

This much we know of those elected: there was no holiness and no righteous standing so that they might live in the unmediated presence of God. Isn’t this the purpose of salvation? ... to bring a people into His unmediated presence by the redemptive work of the Son of God, Jesus Christ? (Jn.14.3; 17.24; Re.21.3) Now there are some things hard to understand in the word of God. For example, omniscience and foreknowledge are not the same things, yet so many of us treat them as if they are. Omniscience, like omnipresence, omnipotence, is an attribute of God. An attribute describes for us something of what God is like. Omni- from the Latin omnis, meaning all or universally. God is all-knowing, present in all places at one time, and all-powerful. However, foreknowledge and election refer to acts of God. I believe the statements, ‘God has predestinated that believers shall be saved,’ and, ‘God foreknew who they are that would believe,’ is a direct result of confusing God’s attribute of omniscience with His act that is called foreknowledge. That God comprehends all things at once, that He knows all things, that He knows from eternity the beginning from the end is true. (Is.46.10; Jn.16.30; 21.17) We do not deny that God is omniscient, but omniscience isn’t an act. In other words there is no intent in knowing. However, to foreknow is to act. God acts positively toward those he foreknows. This foreknowledge is when He sets His special thoughts upon someone. Therefore it can be said that omniscience differs from foreknowledge as a thought does from a deed, and this deed by God to foreknow is by His grace. Grace is the moving cause of foreknowledge. As a matter of fact grace is the moving cause of both foreknowledge and election. God by His grace set His mind specially upon one (foreknowledge) to choose him (election) in Jesus Christ to be saved. 1Pe 1:2, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (cf. Ro.11.5) G-R-A-C-E: the absolutely arbitrary, unmerited, loving favor of God bestowed upon those foreknown and elected. By now hopefully we understand better that foreknowledge isn’t determined by the foreknown, but by the Foreknower; that, election isn’t determined by the elected, but by the Elector; and that,predestination isn’t determined by the predestinated, but by the Predestinator.

Do you believe in predestination ?

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