Do "works" matter?

ZiSunka · Jan 3, 2003

Originally posted by s0uljah
Good support for Purgatory.

The works go through God's fire, in other words, he judges our deeds according to his teachings. The people themselves don't go through the fire, and it doesn't say they do. The people don't suffer for the things they did or didn't do in life during some purging process after life. The works are judged like a refiner burning away the dross, the slag, the base things that muddy the metal and make it impure.

In other words, God takes away the things that we did for the wrong reasons, and looks at what is left, the things we did for the right reasons, and determines from that how much we loved him in life.

Blindfaith · Jan 3, 2003

Excellent posts lambslove ~ you explained it perfectly

Chris†opher Paul · Jan 3, 2003

Originally posted by lambslove
Works are the evidence of saving faith. You can't have a real, loving relationship with God and also thumb your nose at his commands and teachings. If you truly love God, it will show in the things you do and the way you live.

That's what works are. Works are reciprocated love.

Are you saying works are automatic?

Blindfaith · Jan 3, 2003

I think what she's saying (please correct me if I'm wrong LL), that when you have a REAL faith, you can't help but do the good deeds, because of Christ's love and HIS work within you. 

How can you have a loving relationship with Christ, from the very depths of your heart and soul and not bear the fruit that goes with it?  If your fruit is dried up, isn't your faith?  LL, you're more eloquent than I am........you can explain it.

Souljah ~ c'mon now, keep up! Just funnin' ya.

Chris†opher Paul · Jan 3, 2003

I agree that love for Christ produces good fruit. But if this is as secondary and automatic as some people make it out to be, then why did Jesus warn us about doing His will?

Obviously we have some sort of conscious decision to make. Do I stay and watch the football game, or do I get off the sofa and do what my Master would have me do?

See?

ZiSunka · Jan 3, 2003

Originally posted by s0uljah
Are you saying works are automatic?

Not at all.

Works are evidence of your love for God. Deliberate actions, works are. But the works don't save you, they just provide evidence that you are saved.

If you don't desire to follow God's teachings and commands, then you gotta question how much you really love God.

Chris†opher Paul · Jan 3, 2003

Originally posted by lambslove
Not at all.

Works are evidence of your love for God. Deliberate actions, works are. But the works don't save you, they just provide evidence that you are saved.

If you don't desire to follow God's teachings and commands, then you gotta question how much you really love God.

Ok, I agree with that 100%

Now, can lack of works cause you to not go to Heaven?

Blindfaith · Jan 3, 2003

I don't see faith and works being separate.  I see them as being totally and completely complimentary to each other.  You can't have one without the other.  Paul explains it perfectly in Romans. 

 

Do I stay and watch the football game, or do I get off the sofa and do what my Master would have me do?

Well, one would hope.......

 

See?

**sniffle sniffle**  Our boy is growing up **bf wipes a tear**.....He understands us

Chris†opher Paul · Jan 3, 2003

I don't see faith and works being separate. I see them as being totally and completely complimentary to each other. You can't have one without the other.

Exactly.

Now people go on to say that Catholic earn salvation. No, we don't separate the two. Faith and works are two blades on a pair of scissors.

ZiSunka · Jan 3, 2003

Originally posted by s0uljah
I agree that love for Christ produces good fruit. But if this is as secondary and automatic as some people make it out to be, then why did Jesus warn us about doing His will?

Obviously we have some sort of conscious decision to make. Do I stay and watch the football game, or do I get off the sofa and do what my Master would have me do?

See?

Because our laziness and selfishness might keep us from doing the right things.

Just like you described, we have to make the conscious decision to get up and do the right things for the right reasons, just like you have to get up and cook dinner and do other things that show your family that you love them. If you always sat around watching football and never did any loving things like going to work and painting the bathroom, your wife would quickly conclude that you don't love her very much, no matter how many times you told her you do.

Same way with our relationship with God. If you go to church and sing songs, but you never follow his teachings and or do any loving acts toward him, then he has every right to conclude that you don't love him very much, no matter how many times you sing "Awesome God."

Blindfaith · Jan 3, 2003

Everyone's posting on top of one another........

You are saved by your faith and your belief in Jesus Christ ~ Salvation.  Justification.

Sanctification is when the works come in; when you're being honed, purified while on Earth.

Glorification is in Heaven when you become, well....Glorified.  Exactly like Christ.  Clothed in white.........

I think, and this is only my opinion here, that if you claim you're saved (and only God knows the heart), and you do no good deeds at all, then are you a religious lost person?  How can you love and want to do the will of God if you don't listen and do nothing?  When you're saved, you're transformed.

I had a great thought, but it left me....not enough coffee yet...

Chris†opher Paul · Jan 3, 2003

You are not saved by faith. You are saved by grace, which gives you the option to have faith/works. If you are judged worthy after you die, you go to Heaven.

ZiSunka · Jan 3, 2003

Exactly, blindfaith!

Blindfaith · Jan 3, 2003

YES LL!!  I think we've got it!

YeeHaw!!

 

Okay Souljah, I'll play along for a minute ~ the coffee is brewing and I'm really crabby right now.....I need my caffeine.

You are correct.  Only by God's Saving and Magnificent Grace are we saved at all.  There is nothing on this earth that we could possibly do by ourselves, to earn our salvation without Him.  He offers His salvation to us by his Grace.  Through our Faith in Him, believing on/in Him, accepting Him and His unbelievable Sacrifice, we are saved. 

When we have Faith in our Unmatchable Lord, and listen to His precious Spirit, we do what He tells us to do (or are suppose to).  According to Thy Will.  The more we fellowship with our Lord, the more we want to do His will, not my own will.

K?

Chris†opher Paul · Jan 3, 2003

Well you two sure do agree with each other. Now, how about you see if you agree with me?

Blindfaith · Jan 3, 2003

Nah. That's no fun.  ROFLOL......

I'm about to break out into song & dance....it's called "The Semantics song"

Chris†opher Paul · Jan 3, 2003

You think your faith saves you? Faith alone? No, you think works are part of it, that much we covered.

Do you think you produce this faith/works combo to save yourself, or does God do it, or both?

P.S.

Semantics are important, because not everyone who calls Him Lord is saved.

Kirisutokyoo-shinja · Jan 3, 2003

Faith and works are separate, but they are both needed to "complete" God's plan.  An unsaved person can do "good works", but they have not the faith which we speak of.  Someone who is saved can have faith in God, and yet continue in the own foolish ways (and I have seen many instances of both of these positions).

You cannot have just one or the other, that is practically being lukewarm.  We know that the bible says:

Revelations, Chapter 3, verses 15 and 16

15.  I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16.  So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

One is lukewarm in such a situation...aka half and half...one but not both, God dislikes this.  He will spew thee out of his mouth as he has said in his word of truth.  Therefore, if one does not exemplify good works AND demonstrate "active faith" then you are not in correct standings with God's will, which is found in God's word...which is his will.

Doesn't it also say somewhere that those who are lukewarm are worse off than even the cold? (or perhaps I'm rambling here)
Erm... a scripture would be nice

Chris†opher Paul · Jan 3, 2003

Originally posted by Kirisutokyoo-shinja
Faith and works are separate, but they are both needed to "complete" God's plan.  An unsaved person can do "good works", but they have not the faith which we speak of.  Someone who is saved can have faith in God, and yet continue in the own foolish ways (and I have seen many instances of both of these positions).

You cannot have just one or the other, that is practically being lukewarm.  We know that the bible says:

Revelations, Chapter 3, verses 15 and 16

15.  I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16.  So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

One is lukewarm in such a situation...aka half and half...one but not both, God dislikes this.  He will spew thee out of his mouth as he has said in his word of truth.  Therefore, if one does not exemplify good works AND demonstrate "active faith" then you are not in correct standings with God's will, which is found in God's word...which is his will.

Doesn't it also say somewhere that those who are lukewarm are worse off than even the cold? (or perhaps I'm rambling here)
Erm... a scripture would be nice

Exactly, you are a wise kid.

ZiSunka · Jan 3, 2003

Originally posted by s0uljah
You are not saved by faith. You are saved by grace, which gives you the option to have faith/works. If you are judged worthy after you die, you go to Heaven.

Sorry. Can't agree with that.

We are saved by the grace of God through faith in Christ.

Titus 3:4-5
"But when the love of God appeared through our Lord Jesus Christ, He saved us, not because of the good deeds we had done, but because of His mercy."

That settles it for me.

It's not salvation through impressive acts of good works, it is salvation through God's love, our faith in Christ and God's mercy.

Do "works" matter?

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