Do we hate success?

Svt4Him · Feb 21, 2011

Some kids at my son's hockey game were talking about how they hated Justin Bieber. It made me wonder why, what has he ever done but become famous. Then it got me thinking how we wish others will do well, but when they do, we feel the need to belittle them. Is it to make us feel better? Is it pride? When talking about big ministries, does the same thought pattern affect how we view them? Pride, as CS Lewis says, always compairs itself with others. If we're rich, we're only happy if others aren't as rich, otherwise we're the same; how does that effect how we view larger churches or better yet, larger ministries?

Always in His Presence · Feb 21, 2011

probinson · Feb 21, 2011

I think the problem is envy.

Always in His Presence · Feb 21, 2011

probinson said:
I think the problem is envy.

Envy + pride = EGO

E - Edging

G - God

O - Out

JimB · Feb 22, 2011

Simply Put said:
Envy + pride = EGO

E - Edging

G - God

O - Out

Im writing this one down.

Good thread, BTW.

~Jim

True faith believes in God, not itself.

Tamara224 · Feb 23, 2011

Svt4Him said:
Some kids at my son's hockey game were talking about how they hated Justin Bieber. It made me wonder why, what has he ever done but become famous. Then it got me thinking how we wish others will do well, but when they do, we feel the need to belittle them. Is it to make us feel better? Is it pride? When talking about big ministries, does the same thought pattern affect how we view them? Pride, as CS Lewis says, always compairs itself with others. If we're rich, we're only happy if others aren't as rich, otherwise we're the same; how does that effect how we view larger churches or better yet, larger ministries?

Well, I'm sure it can't be discounted as a theory for why some people are apt to criticize. But I'd be very hesitant to attribute all criticism of "big business" er... I mean "big church" to envy.

That strikes me rather like poisoning the well.

Tenebrae · Feb 23, 2011

Not when its a result of honest, ethical hard work

Svt4Him · Feb 24, 2011

By who's standard? Or what if it wasn't from honest work but was simply a blessing given to someone else? The labourors who worked the whole day were paid the same as those who worked an hour, ask them if the ones who worked an hour and got paid the same worked an honest, ethical day and you may find their opinion is affected by their own bias.

Beniamino · Feb 24, 2011

Svt4Him said:
By who's standard? Or what if it wasn't from honest work but was simply a blessing given to someone else? The labourors who worked the whole day were paid the same as those who worked an hour, ask them if the ones who worked an hour and got paid the same worked an honest, ethical day and you may find their opinion is affected by their own bias.

I always had trouble understanding that particular parable. I couldn't decide if the employer was being generous to the late-comers, or stingy with the early workers, and wondered why our Lord didn't explain one way or the other.

But I guess that wasn't the point of the parable; the point being that sometimes you look around and you see that others seem to be more fortunate than you, even though you might feel you are more deserving of good fortune, and that it is wrong to be envious (a mortal sin, in fact!) thereby.

Yeah, I'll probably have to work until I'm 60, and this 17 year-old is set for life, but good for him -- If I had a voice people would pay to hear sing, I'd probably be right there with him; can't begrudge him that.

pdudgeon · Feb 25, 2011

i think it's not so much that some people hate success, as it is that they hate their own defeats when compared with the success of others, especially if that defeat and success were in the same fields.

The problem has it's roots in ego, self-righteousness, and a root of bitterness, gall, and hatred that some people cling to.

it's very sad to see and talk with them, because they are so busy hating God for what has happened that they thrust away love and forgiveness, and God's grace,truth and His freedom that comes with the forgiveness.

it reminds me of the time when Jesus wept over Jerusalem. He had so much love and promise to give to them, His chosen people, and yet many refused to see and recognize Him as He fulfilled the scriptures right before their eyes.

JIMOH · Mar 4, 2011

Svt4Him said:
Some kids at my son's hockey game were talking about how they hated Justin Bieber. It made me wonder why, what has he ever done but become famous. Then it got me thinking how we wish others will do well, but when they do, we feel the need to belittle them. Is it to make us feel better? Is it pride? When talking about big ministries, does the same thought pattern affect how we view them? Pride, as CS Lewis says, always compairs itself with others. If we're rich, we're only happy if others aren't as rich, otherwise we're the same; how does that effect how we view larger churches or better yet, larger ministries?

I see the same thing with regards to WoFers.
Religious peolple just cannot stand the idea that you are not living in abject poverty and dying of cancer.

heron · Mar 7, 2011

In addition...

When it comes to trends like musicians, kids argue over "I liked them first," and "I hate them now." I think for them, they're barely even thinking of the person, but the brand that becomes popular and then gluts into a negative realm.

People like to be unique, be the first, be part of a special forward-thinking group.

heron · Mar 7, 2011

and wondered why our Lord didn't explain one way or the other.

Noticed that Jesus did that several times. He told the story and walked away, letting people think about it. Then the people who really wanted to know, and humbled themselves to ask... they were the ones who were given the punch lines.

When people are dictated to, they resist. When given mysteries, they work hard to reflect and figure it out. Jesus had his own learning theories. (-;

Simon_Templar · Mar 7, 2011

Reminds me of an awsome line from Fellowship of the Ring.. speaking about Biblo Baggins and how he posessed seemingly eternal youth and reportedly inexhaustible wealth, people said that it was too much of a good thing and trouble would come of it, then it says, but since he was free with his money people were willing to forgive him his oddities, "and his good fortune".

Tolkien kind of offhandedly highlights the reality that we often hold other people's good fortune against them.

We get jealous and envious etc...

When it regards fame in particular there are two things I think of... one is probably somewhat more justifiable than the other.

one is that when the masses like something, for many there is a tendency to dislike it simply because other people like it and we don't want to be part of the "stupid masses"

Another, which I tend to think is more justifiable.. perhaps is that I find myself getting irritated more with the fact that the masses idolize people for stupid things. It really irritates me sometimes that people idolize singers, and athletes, and movie stars. Even if they are nice people, the reality is that their status is based on things that are largely without real value. To me it is a commentary on the degredation of our whole civilization... As a people we don't value virtue. The thing we value you most is simply fame itself. We become obsessed with people simply because everyone knows who they are. Its not even really about the talent that people have. More than anything else its publicity itself that we love.

*edit add*
This also really really irritates me when it comes to pastors, and particularly youth pastors... There are times when I think youth pastors are one of the greatest banes on modern Christianity. In my experience the primary qualities required to be a popular youth pastor are to be hyper-active, with no discernable attention span, and a minimalistic knowledge of scripture and spirituality.

charityagape · Mar 10, 2011

Wow that seems a rather large and unfair blanket to throw on your pastors the world wide.

Simon_Templar · Mar 10, 2011

charityagape said:
Wow that seems a rather large and unfair blanket to throw on your pastors the world wide.

As my friend always says.. if you don't like stereotypes... don't be one. I'm sure there are good youth pastors out there somewhere... I've just never really met one (at least that I remember).

charityagape · Mar 10, 2011

Well I know someone who says there are any good mexicans out there he's never met one. His experience doesn't make that a correct or acceptable statement to make. In my opinion youth pastors are extremely unappreciated, when it's are youth we most need to reach.

Simon_Templar · Mar 10, 2011

charityagape said:
Well I know someone who says there are any good mexicans out there he's never met one. His experience doesn't make that a correct or acceptable statement to make. In my opinion youth pastors are extremely unappreciated, when it's are youth we most need to reach.

nope... I've met good Mexicans.

I do agree that the youth really are in desperate need of 'being reached'... mainly because the youth programs and youth pastors in so many churches have done such an awful job of spiritual formation. They are too busy being hyper, trendy, edgy, and relevant, as well as avoiding anything 'boring' like content.

Of course, its not really fair to lay that on the youth programs and the youth pastors... its also largely the parents fault for doing such a poor job of raising their kids in the faith.

lismore · Mar 11, 2011

Svt4Him said:
Is it to make us feel better? Is it pride?

To put a different spin on it, take the example of football.

In this country there are many football players being paid huge sums of money, one is being paid £50,000 per week, often for a mediocre performance. A lot of players couldn't hit a cow's rear end with a banjo. At the last world cup, certain players missed an open goal repeatedly and were payed millions of pounds for it!

A lot of people look at them and know there would behundreds of guys going to watch football, who could play it better. Time and chance have put overrated players on a pedestal.

It's just the way society is, we idolise nothing for some reason. And not everyone is willing to go along with it.

Tenebrae · Mar 13, 2011

Svt4Him said:
By who's standard? Or what if it wasn't from honest work but was simply a blessing given to someone else? The labourors who worked the whole day were paid the same as those who worked an hour, ask them if the ones who worked an hour and got paid the same worked an honest, ethical day and you may find their opinion is affected by their own bias.

for example, this is my sisters first year working as an consultant doctor in an emergency room, shes on roughly $250,000 a year, and has just bought a six room 2 storey house, with a large in ground swimming pool at the cost of about $1 million dollars. She has got to where she is via seven years at medical school, then a further 12 years working full time, studying her part 1s, and then part twos to graduate as a specialist in emergency medicine. In comparison I'm a pauper, I have nothing but respect for my sister no jealousy what so ever of her sucess, shes worked jolly hard to get where she is

In comparison, a preacher from a New Zealand church, has a salary comparible with my sister, and lives in one of the richest suburbs in Auckland. One could argue that there is nothing wrong with a preacher having money, and on that account I agree. However there are multiple stories emerging of people who have been guilted into giving their 10% tithe, at the expense of being able to pay their rent, utilities, and put food on their table for their kids. I've had several clients from that church who were told when they went for help from abusive relationships, that they needed to repent, submit to their husbands, and give their tithes and first fruit offerings.

What constitutes ethical behavior, when ones sucess is built on the backs of other peoples suffering, makes one wonder whether ethical behavior has formed the basis of 'success'. How secure is the sucess, will it come crashing down at drop of a hat, or will it stand secure when the storms one example I can think of is Ted Haggard, who outwardly gave every appearance of sucess, yet it all came crashing down very easily.

Do we hate success?

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