Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
What is a Calvinist?
What is a Calvinist?
I wanted to ask you about something AW, I know your pretty well read. My view might be a little different, I think God decided before the foundation of the world, that all who would be saved would be made the righteousness of God in Christ. It's just, I don't think he had a list, I've kind of struggled with this for the last couple of years. Not really sure how to approach the subject but Calvinism is one of the few systematic theologies that is not only candid in it's beliefs and doctrines, but I find nothing objectionable and I've always identified as Calvinist. I was reading somewhere that while the Calvinist believes it's all predetermined other views emphasis more what the individual was predestined for rather then who the elect are. What I see in Paul's doctrinal discussion in Ephesians 1 and 2 is a kind of hyperbole, that God chose him before the foundation of the world. This, I think would have been common among the Jews, when they couldn't find the words to make a strong enough statement.I didn't know Calvinists believe God makes us accept Him. That's a new one to me. Praise God He pulls us kicking and screaming....except that's not exactly accurate.
Calvinists believe it is both, however Calvinists believe that God first chose us from eternity, before the foundation of the world. Calvinists also believe, because a person is able or has the ability to choose God, a supernatural work of God the Holy Spirit the work of regeneration by God alone must take place where God also replaces the dead faith with living faith, the heart of stone for a heart of flesh, and after the person has become a new creation (Gal 6:15) all things have become new (2 Cor 5:17), then a person chooses to repent, confesses and submits to Christ as Lord of their life, because the call is effectual, it is "irresistible". So far as resisting is concerned, that is all a person dead in sins and trespasses can do, is to resist because that which is flesh is flesh, and the nature of the flesh is to resist the Spirit. If God did not intervene by providence in the case of fallen humanity, none could accept Him. If God had not chosen us first (election) from eternity, and left it up to mankind to choose (elect) himself, none would choose Him, because of the condition of mankind, neither could any persevere without the providence, grace, and tender mercies of God. To God, we are but children, and just as parents must intervene for the good and safety of a child, so God must intervene also, and He has every right as Creator to do as He pleases, which we all struggle with at times.
I wanted to ask you about something AW, I know your pretty well read. My view might be a little different, I think God decided before the foundation of the world, that all who would be saved would be made the righteousness of God in Christ. It's just, I don't think he had a list, I've kind of struggled with this for the last couple of years. Not really sure how to approach the subject but Calvinism is one of the few systematic theologies that is not only candid in it's beliefs and doctrines, but I find nothing objectionable and I've always identified as Calvinist. I was reading somewhere that while the Calvinist believes it's all predetermined other views emphasis more what the individual was predestined for rather then who the elect are. What I see in Paul's doctrinal discussion in Ephesians 1 and 2 is a kind of hyperbole, that God chose him before the foundation of the world. This, I think would have been common among the Jews, when they couldn't find the words to make a strong enough statement.
I'd rather be a compromised Calvinist then just about anything else, that's the truth. I guess if I find out this is some kind of a deal breaker I'll have to be a theological orphan. But seriously, it seems like a delicate question, I was wondering what you thought about it.
Grace and peace,
Mark
I've done a fair amount of that, both MacArthur and Sproul, never really heard them say anything about a list per se. Just wondering what you thought, no big.Brother Mark, I know you enjoy listening to Dr. MacArthur, I recommend listening to whatever sermons he might have included in the online GTY archives on Particular Redemption, the "list" doctrine.If you would like more resources, I can help lead you to them. God bless.
I've done a fair amount of that, both MacArthur and Sproul, never really heard them say anything about a list per se. Just wondering what you thought, no big.
Guys! Please!
As far as I can tell, neither of you are Calvinist. I've pointed out the SOP. It's now time for you to gracefully bow out.
Yea, I was under the impression that not all Calvinists agree with that exactly. I certainly have some reservations taking it that far even though I understand there is such a thing as God's omnipotence.By list do you mean something like a list of individuals, as in God choosing individuals for salvation, before the foundation of the world?
Yea, I was under the impression that not all Calvinists agree with that exactly. I certainly have some reservations taking it that far even though I understand there is such a thing as God's omnipotence.
I believe it is both because He does not make us accept Him?
We are all born at enmity with God as children of wrath. Scripture clearly states that "there is none that seeks God." Scripture says that the "natural man can not discern the things of God", it says that we are
'blinded by the god of this world." (Satan)
Scripture tells us that we should pray for some that "God would grant them a spirit of repentance." Also that faith is a gift from God. Once you have true faith you don't lose it.
Read the 1st 2 chapters of Ephesians and it gives a clear picture of how people are saved.
I'm increasingly convinced that Scripture speaks of election in differing ways.
Most of the time, election is for service. God called Israel to bless the nations. He calls us in Christ to be the Church, his light to all mankind. He called Paul and other individuals. His call is prior to any response on our part and enables it.
The corporate calls can be rejected. Even one of the disciples ended up rejecting his call. Probably the individual can as well, though you can define that away by using the term election only for people who are finally saved. I think that's a mistake, though, as it turns election into election for privilege rather than election for responsibility. I think Christ saw his mission as calling people to the Kingdom, and holding them responsible for their response. So I'd rather see election as applying to everyone that is called.
But there's another side to it. If we think God is responsible for all of history (and I have to say that for me this is still an open question), then everything, even people's rejection of him, is part of his plan. I don't think Scripture speaks of this often, though there are a few places that do seem to reference it. I think Luther was wise in later life not to say much about it. We don't know God's perspective, and in trying to guess, we risk making God look demonic. I don't think God has a list of people who he sets out to damn, although I understand that there are good, logical reasons for concluding that he does. But I think it contradicts explicit statements that God doesn't want any to be lost. So I'd rather simply say that God's plan does include even human rejection, but resist going further than that.
I think Reformed have often been too quick in seeing every reference to election as referring to God's secret choice of who will be saved, when election refers to God calling a person or group to service, and holding them responsible for their response.
View attachment 254253
MOD HAT ON
This thread has had a clean.
May I remind you of this part of this forum's Statement of Purpose:
Non-Calvinist members are not allowed to post in this forum.
MOD HAT OFF
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?