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tall73

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The proposal was looking at pre-vaccination harm rates. If you have someone who fully intends to examine the data so they can see how to best manipulate cooperative societal structures, you don't have much chance of convincing them. That is not something most people with questions about what is best are going to conclude.


It is pretty simple. You go to the doctor regarding an injury to your child's ankle in sports. They say "I notice you are going to be due for this vaccine." They offer to give it right there. No information is offered. But if I ask to see specific information, or ask about specific side effects I know about they try to shut down the conversation.

This happened more than once. I switched clinics and that helped. And yes, I can go look up info. I just posted an example of a CDC communication that gets a lot right. But I also noted they spelled out the projected benefits in reduced hospitalization, deaths, infections, etc. but then just generically referred to serious side effects without giving any data on how often these occur, other than saying they are rare. Why is it bad to give that data?
 
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Trogdor the Burninator

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Exactly. Conspiracy theorists rely on self-fulfilling arguments that inevitably validate their position, no matter how much evidence is presented. In reality they don't want evidence, they want confirmation.

The funny part is that their own arguments are subject to the same "rules" but they never apply them there. The crappy anti-vax website they get all their "facts" from could be funded by big pharma or big naturopath or Ming the Merciless for all they know. But they will never ask that question.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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I've yet to encounter anyone in the anti-vaccine/"vaccines cause autism" that's ever responded to any sort of study, data, etc...

In every case, without exception, it's always followed the pattern of escalation I outlined earlier.

In many ways, it's like arguing against a conspiracy theorist of any other flavor (9/11 conspiracies, chem-trails, moon landing truthers, etc...)

They use any evidence against the conspiracy, as further evidence of the conspiracy.

IE: "Look at all of the studies by all of these highly rated sources that shows XYZ" gets the response of "See, that shows you just how high up the conspiracy goes!"

Basically, what's covered in this video


There are, but most of those are taken out of context as well.

For instance, the one that everyone in that camp likes to cite, is the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP).

They used the fact that there were millions of dollars in payouts as evidence that "see, the courts wouldn't have awarded them that money if there was no evidence that the vaccines caused the ailments!"

However, they stop reading after the first paragraph, and don't get to the part where the presiding judiciary members over the matter went on to say:

I am well aware, of course, that during the years since the test cases were decided, in the cases involving vaccinees suffering from ASDs, Vaccine Act compensation was granted.
But in none of those cases did the Respondent concede, nor did a special master find, that there was any “causation-in-fact” connection between a vaccination and the vaccinee’s ASD. Instead, in those cases it was conceded or found that the vaccinee displayed the symptoms of a Table Injury within the Table time frame after vaccination.

In Poling v. HHS, the presiding special master clarified that the family was compensated because the Respondent conceded that the Poling child had suffered a Table Injury–not because the Respondent or the special master had concluded that any vaccination had contributed to causing or aggravating the child’s ASD.

The compensation of these cases, thus does not afford any support to the notion that vaccinations can contribute to the causation of autism. In setting up the Vaccine Act compensation system, Congress forthrightly acknowledged that the Table Injury presumptions would result in compensation for injuries that were not, in fact, truly vaccine-caused.


Or in plain terms, both congress and the court acknowledged that the law was rather poorly written and vaguely worded, and would result in compensation for things that weren't actually caused by the vaccine.

Basically, congress set up a table of potential vaccine effects, and if any child developed any of those things post-vaccination, they'd be eligible to pursue compensation without actually proving that the vaccine was the cause.

And that table included a myriad of things, that any child could develop, at any time, with or without vaccinations.

For instance, things like allergic reactions, fevers, etc...

Most kids have fevers at some point...the fact that one happens to occur 10 days after a vaccination doesn't prove that the vaccine caused it. Kids get fevers sometimes...that's just life.

With or without vaccination, the rate of ASD is approximately 16 per 1,000. (with varying degrees of severity)
 
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tall73

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Then you should either

a. present the evidence anyway for the lurkers, and the theoretical exception you have never encountered.
b. avoid such debates, if they frustrate you.


That was a feature, not an accident. They make the tables based on known harms that have been associated with particular components. So yes, if you develop that harm within the time frame then they pay out. And at times they revise the tables. Since the court was developed to help those injured, or possibly injured, while shielding the companies who produce them from some types of liability, and to make sure they still had companies that would invest in vaccines they pay out without requiring proof, if it is a known harm.

And they could pay out on things that are not directly caused by a vaccination if the timing was coincidental. On the other hand, things usually wind up on the table because they are known harms that could result from the vaccination. Here is some of the documentation:

https://www.hrsa.gov/sites/default/...ccine-injury-compensation-program-booklet.pdf

What must be proven in order to be paid? You must prove that:
•the injured person received a vaccine listed on the Table; and
•the first symptom of the injury/condition on the Table as defined in the Qualifications and Aids to Interpretation (QAIs) occurred within the time period listed on the Table; or
•the vaccine caused the injury; or
•the vaccine caused an existing illness to get worse (significantly aggravated).

In addition, the Court must determine that the injury or death did not result from any other possible causes.

What is the Vaccine Injury Table? The Table makes it easier for some people to get compensation. The Table lists and explains injuries/conditions that are presumed to be caused by vaccines. It also lists time periods in which the first symptom of these injuries/conditions must occur after receiving the vaccine. If the first symptom of these injuries/conditions occurs within the listed time periods, it is presumed that the vaccine was the cause of the injury or condition unless another cause is found. For example, if you received the tetanus vaccine and had a severe allergic reaction (anaphylaxis) within 4 hours after receiving the vaccine, then it is presumed that the tetanus vaccinecaused the injury if no other cause is found. If your injury/condition is not on the Table or if your injury/condition did not occur within the time period on the Table, you must prove that the vaccine caused the injury/condition. Such proof must be based on medical records or opinion, which may include expert witness testimony.


They note a case, anaphylactic reaction, which usually has a time frame around four hours after administration. This is quite likely to be the cause unless some other obvious cause is found.

Since that is a harm known to be associated with some vaccines they can quantify the number of cases where this occurs so that people can see how rare it is compared to the risk of the disease.

Basically, congress set up a table of potential vaccine effects, and if any child developed any of those things post-vaccination, they'd be eligible to pursue compensation without actually proving that the vaccine was the cause.
Right, because it was presumed to be the cause based on what they knew of the vaccine. This allowed companies to produce the vaccines without being sued into oblivion.


As noted above, a severe allergic reaction immediately after administration is likely not a coincidence.

And while there could be some coincidental payments made when causation is not proven, there could also be some who simply never take their case to the court. The process is quite long for some settlements.

My point is that it is one data point, along with monitoring of reported symptoms, etc. that we can use as a way to quantify how rare the reactions wind up being.
 
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tall73

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Some things are a little easier to tie to the vaccine. Here is an example, and the related WHO document is a good sample of what I would like to see for informational material.

https://www.who.int/immunization/di...lio_vaccine/VAPPandcVDPVFactSheet-Feb2015.pdf

It lists estimated benefits. But it also lists rates of a known severe harm.


The oral polio vaccine (OPV) is an extremely safe and effective tool for immunizing children against polio. Over the past 10 years, more than 10 billion doses of OPV have been administered to over 2.5 billion children worldwide, preventing more than 10 million polio cases during that period


Vaccine-associated paralytic polio (VAPP)OPV is made with live attenuated (weakened) polio viruses that can result in a case of vaccine-associated paralytic polio (VAPP) in approximately 1 in 2.7 million doses of OPV

Obviously no one wants to risk paralysis. However, if the chances are 1 in 2.7 million, the risk is quite low compared to the risk of contracting polio if vaccination were not carried out. I have had relatives who had lasting effects from polio, and of course many others did as well.


So my point is that listing such specific rates per dose is helpful for convincing people that the risk is real, but very small. Most of the cases are not as debated as the purported connection to autism.

 
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sesquiterpene

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I'll have to agree with tall73 here that you shouldn't dismiss the table injuries. I think they are all genuine injuries with clear causal links to vaccines. Fever is a very common effect that can be caused by pretty much every vaccine. Another table injury common to most vaccines is vasovagal syncope - while it might sound amusing at first, a certain percentage of people will faint after any sort of injection, and it's very easy to injure oneself while fainting. Why shouldn't they be compensated?

Certainly some percentage of the awards in the Vaccine Court are for injuries that are mere coincidence - but it's impossible to tell which ones those are, so all are rewarded.

Keep in mind that the Vaccine Court was set up with the cooperation of antivaxx activists as well as industry types, as a fast, no-contest, no-fault means of compensating those that have actually been injured by vaccines. It's been a great boon to all sides.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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To clarify, I'm not suggesting that everything in the table be dismissed.

...per my previous post, the judge had to issue that clarification specifically because people were taking a few specific cases, and using the logic of "since they were paid out, that must mean the courts are validating out theories!"

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmp0802904
(A few examples of that are outlined in this article)

You mentioned a person with the condition where they'll faint after any sort of injection...that's not a vaccine injury, that would be a needle injury then, yes? (since if it's just the act of any injection that causes a reaction, that person could faint from a placebo)


There's a big difference between saying "a vaccine can cause an allergic reaction in some patients that can cause a fever...so since we don't know whether this was a fever caused by the vaccine, or just one of the, on average, 4-6 fevers a child will experience in their first 2 years of life, we'll just pay out since we don't have a way of knowing which scenario it is"

...and saying "See, the fact that Hannah Poling's parents were paid out validates their claim that the vaccine caused of the issues she had" (which is how many anti-vaxxers interpret those rulings).

Like I said, the judge had to issue clarification on that specifically for that reason because a lot of folks are operating on an incorrect premise (that's fairly commonplace) which is a traditional court environment, in which when a party is awarded moneys, that must mean a judge found their claim to have merit.

In a way, almost like their under the impression that these kinds of court proceedings operate under the same rules as small claims courts, when this particular type of ruling/law was something very different.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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The points you're making are pragmatic and reasonable points...however, that's not how the conversations typically play out when discussing it with an anti-vaxx person. It tends to go into the realm of conspiracy really quick.

I spend a lot of time debating folks about a wide variety of topics, both here, and on other social media outlets (I'm sure we all do, otherwise we wouldn't be members of a debate forum).

I can't think of a single instance where constructively, and respectfully explaining benefit:risk trade-offs, or presenting statistics has ever worked.

In every instance, the first rebuttal tends to be that "those numbers are a lie, Big Pharma is just covering up the real data"... followed by assertions about "how blind and dumb the sheeple are for believing the studies because science is rigged"

Not really anywhere else constructive to go from there...
 
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sesquiterpene

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No , it's an injury that is directly caused by the vaccine. Whether people might suffer injuries from some other injection is irrelevant. This is an injury that some people will suffer in order to ensure the health of all of our entire populace. Vaccination is a process that subjects a very few to some risks in order to eliminate much greater risks. I think it's very reasonable to compensate those who have suffered these risks.

There's also people who have been damaged by badly inserted needles. Let's try to compensate them also.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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...but that's only an indirect relationship at best.

Look, I'm not opposed to them setting up some sort of measure that protects medical professionals so they don't get sued into oblivion as I believe you worded it.

The problem is that people are assuming that "court awarded them payout" equals "the basis for their claim must have been valid"

Not sure how much time you've spent debating anti-vaxxers, but they love to bring up the Hannah Poling case as validation for their claim, and assert that "the fact that the court awarded them money proves that there's a link between the MMR vaccine and ASD"
 
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sesquiterpene

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...but that's only an indirect relationship at best.
No, that's as direct as a causal relation can be. Are you really arguing that vaccinations can't cause injuries?
Look, I'm not opposed to them setting up some sort of measure that protects medical professionals so they don't get sued into oblivion as I believe you worded it.
No. Really no. The vaccine court has been set up to compensate those who have actually been injured by vaccines, as best as anyone can determine - and as best that science can determine. There are real risks in all vaccinations. If you think that none of these people have been injured by vaccines, your viewpoint is as wildly inaccurate as any antivaxxer. This is indeed a risk/benefit analysis, and saying there is no risk at all is completely false.
 
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