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pcwilkins said:I started to reply, but realised I was writing in a wrong spirit, as often happens. It is plain that we are not going to agree, and I am not finding that this discussion is bringing me closer to Christ.
I extend my love to you in Jesus Christ, and trust that He will continue that good work which I trust He has begun in you.
Peter
Hi, Peter. Mostly "OK", thank you. Still tryin' to recover from a wreck.pcwilkins said:I'm not sure I understand the question but I'll have a shot.
You are right - the responsibility to seek lies fully with us. If we don't seek God, we will be judged for it - just as we will be judged if we don't keep any other of God's commands.
You and I agree --- mankind is "totally depraved". But your view takes it much farther --- you hold to "UTTER depravity". Total depravity states that all of man's righteousness is to God as filthy rags. Without the sincere call to salvation, he cannot be saved. But UTTER depravity holds that God does NOT call EVERYONE.Because we are descendants of Adam, we are also, by nature, spiritually dead. Instead of being filled with love to God, we are filled with enmity against Him - "the carnal mind is enmity against God" (Rom. 8v7). Every act that we commit in unregeneracy is committed in a wrong spirit - though the acts may be 'good' in themselves. An unregenerate person may feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, etc etc, but because all the while he/she is hating God, God is not pleased with these works. It is nonsensical to suppose that God will be pleased with anything I do while at the same time I am committing the great sin of hating God.
Correct; but I see Rm8 (esp 12ff) as clearly conveying the "obligation" (choice), to walk AFTER the flesh (and die), or to put to death (by the power of the Spirit) and LIVE.That is why "they that are in the flesh cannot please God" (Rom. 8v8), because everything that they do is mixed with this hatred to God. This includes going to Church, reading His word, praying - if any of these are done "in the flesh" they are simply mocking God by pretending to love and worship that One who, really, we hate.
Not a tangent at all, my friend. You and I agree on much; I'm hoping that I'll show you conflict between what you believe, and Scripture.I don't know if I've answered your question but I seem to be going off at a tangent so I'll stop right now.
Outrider, I believe you have missed my intent. We do not "keep Law" to be saved; we keep Jesus, and He now is the Law.Outrider said:Sorry I didn't respond to this earlier, Ben, but I didn't see it until now. Take your method and apply it to the Levitical Law. What you'll come up with is that the law can indeed be kept, which is exactly the opposite of the teaching of Scripture Old Testament and New. Now, go back and read the Law. Throughout the Law, in the Old Testament, you'll see that it is only possible to be obeyed by grace. That is the teaching of the Old Testament Law. If that is true of the Old Testament Law, do you really think that the New Testament is going to teach an obedience apart from grace? So when you read Romans 8, if you see "not walking in the flesh" without any reference to enabling grace, you have read it wrongly. Grace is the environment in which we do or do not do the things we are called to do or not to do. And if your reading of it ignores that previous work of grace, the work is in the flesh and is works righteousness. And that is no strawman. It is really what you believe. And it is really what I am arguing against.
Ben johnson said:Hi, Peter. Mostly "OK", thank you. Still tryin' to recover from a wreck.
With respect --- the word "responsibility", conveys "CAUSE".
It is my understanding that Calvinists read Rom3:10ff, as absolute. That is, "NO one SEEKS God, EVER". Thus they see the need for prior regeneration.
But here is a salvational verse, that places both "belief", and "seeking" as man's choice.
You and I agree --- mankind is "totally depraved". But your view takes it much farther --- you hold to "UTTER depravity".
Total depravity states that all of man's righteousness is to God as filthy rags.
Without the sincere call to salvation, he cannot be saved.
But UTTER depravity holds that God does NOT call EVERYONE.
Thus --- "total" denounces Pelagius, in that man has NOT inherent goodness to believe, he must be CALLED.
Yet Jesus says He will call ALL MEN. Jn12:32
"Utter", states that those unchosen, are uncalled --- and utterly hopeless.
Correct; but I see Rm8 (esp 12ff) as clearly conveying the "obligation" (choice), to walk AFTER the flesh (and die), or to put to death (by the power of the Spirit) and LIVE.
I don't see how he would use "obligation", if it was a divine dictate.
Not a tangent at all, my friend. You and I agree on much; I'm hoping that I'll show you conflict between what you believe, and Scripture.
The purpose of this thread is to discuss the sequence of "seeking" and "finding". Do we find God if we seek?
Or does God find us (election) and THEN we seek Him? Scripture conveys the former to me.
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisses, hypocrites; becasue you SHUT OFF the kingdom of heaven FROM MEN. You do not enter in youselves, nor do you allow those who ARE entering, to GO in." Matt23:13
"Woe to you, experts in Mosaic Law! For you have taken away the key of knowledge; you did not enter in yourselves, and you HINDERED those who WERE entering in." Lk11:52[/color]
I do not think these two verses can fit "Predestination", at all. For if we are predestined, then no one CAN interfere. But here is Jesus condemning them FOR interfering!!!
For if we are predestined, then no one CAN interfere.
Jesus would not have said what He said, if "predestined-election" was dogma....
PS: In "contending for the truth", it is the utmost desire of my heart to encourage my saved brothers and sisters closer to Christ. You also, Peter; I would never wish to "hinder" you in any measure from walking ever closer to Jesus.
I'm focusing on Webster's definition of "accountable as being the CAUSE of something". When you pay your taxes --- do you have a choice NOT to? Yes. Yet Predestination asserts that "regeneration always leads to saving-belief". In other words, it is "irresistible grace".pcwilkins said:I'm not sure. When I say responsible, I mean that we will be held to account for something. I am responsible for paying my taxes - that is, I will be punished if I don't. I don't see cause coming in here. I pay my taxes because I'll get into trouble if I don't.
It is my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong), that Calvinists assert "No one seeks God UNLESS He has irresistibly-called them to [chosen] salvation". Thus the question --- do we seek and find? Or does God choose, and THEN we seek?I see that verse as speaking of 'jews and gentiles' (see verse 9). In that sense it includes you and me, as we are gentiles. I'm not sure what your view is on who is included here.
You must at least confess that not many people do seek God - at least not in the right way, or else they would find Him. Why is it that they don't seek Him in a right way?
No. This one:I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by this. Where is the salvational verse? Do you still mean Romans 3:10etc?
I seek to differentiate between a depravity that reflects man as completely incapable of saving himself, and a depravity that is beyond hope. So --- we are totally depraved, there is nothing of worth inherent in our nature. But UTTER depravity --- conveys a CLIFF, over which is OUTSIDE of redemption.Surely if mankind is totally depraved, that means that every part of us is depraved. If every part of us is depraved, isn't that the same as utter depravity?
My dictionary defines 'utterly' as 'completely; absolutely; entirely'. By denying man to be utterly depraved you are therefore denying he is completely or totally depraved, surely.
Agreed.I believe it means more than that - not just that man's righteousness is as filthy rags, but that every facet of man is fallen from God and directly opposed to Him.
Yes! Exactly that! Here is the crux of the argument: in the river, is there a DROWNING MAN, or is there a LIFELESS CORPSE?But at the same time, we are not saved by a 'sincere call'. I could stand by a river and throw a rope to a drowning man - thereby sincerely showing my willingness to save him. BUT the man is not saved by the fact that I am willing to save him - he is only saved if I actually do save him.
I believe that Jesus redeemed ALL MANKIND. See how this fits:Trying to fit that to the subject, it would not save a man if God just gave him a sincere call - God needs to act, as well. That person's sins need to be atoned for. There needs to be a transferring of their guilt to a surety - there needs to be a payment for those sins.
Jesus said (Jn3:18), that some love the light, some love darkness. I believe that love can be returned to God, or resisted.Ok, so when a man hears the gospel he is given the ability to believe. The problem is then, what is it that makes some people use that ability and others not use it?
I don't see evidence in Scripture of "two calls"; one sincere, one insincere. I do "put much stock" in passages like Matt22:2-14; by the end of the parable (which, in Jesus' words, illustrates the call to salvation) --- who was NOT called? It ends, "many are called, but few are chosen". Where is it conveyed that the KING determined who would respond, and who would not? Were they not free to accept, or to choose instead farming, business, or their own filthy clothing?Granted - as I've said, the outward call of the gospel is not limited to the elect. My question is, what is it that makes some people respond to this call, while others ignore it? What makes them to differ?
You are again confusing the outward call with the inward call. Those who are 'unchosen' are still subject to the outward call. The gospel comes unto them in word. However it doesn't come to them in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance.
This is "fodder" for a whole other discussion; it would encompass verses like 1Cor2:14 ("A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he CANNOT understand them because they are spiritually appraised [judged].") And I would point out that verse 12 plainly says "the RECEIVED Spirit enables us to know the things freely given to us by God". The Spirit is received by belief --- therefore believing in Jesus is NOT one of the "spiritual things that only spiritual men can know". Belief in Jesus, RECEIVES the Spirit. The natural man CAN believe. This is also how I read 1Cor1:21 --- God is pleased to save those who believe THROUGH (in spite of) what they formerly thought foolish...You seem to be implying that we can choose to be put to death by the power of the Spirit. What natural man would make this choice?
Does not Eph5:18 admonish us TO be filled with the Spirit? Does not Col3 admonish us to "set our minds on things above, NOT on earthly things"? Doesn't the following context convey "life" (above), and "death" (earthly)?Romans 8:9 says that "ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Here is the crucial different - are we in the flesh, or do we have the Spirit of God dwelling in us? And can we choose to have the Spirit of God dwelling in us - or is the Spirit like the wind, in that it 'bloweth where it listeth'?
A debt can be forfeit; yes there is consequence; perhaps even jail. But I think it's important that he said "obligation", rather than "compulsion"...I also take issue with you interpreting obligation as choice. If we are obliged to do something it is because we owe it to someone. It is not a free choice.
Exactly that! "Obliged TO live in the Spirit". Please read Eph4:17-32 --- does it not read as choice? Look now at 2Cor13:5; we are to "examine ourselves to see if we are in Christ (and if Christ is IN US)".I assume that you are referring here to verse 12 - "Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh." We are not obliged to live to the flesh, but after the Spirit. Why? It is found in verse 11 - because His Spirit dwelleth in us. That is why we are obliged to live in the Spirit.
Peter, it is an honor and priviledge to converse with you. I pray that I will be equally open to ANY error, which God will teach me through my brothers. Know this, if I have not said it often enough --- there is a time when "OSAS/OSNAS" does not matter. Two brothers, one OSAS, the other OSNAS, can stand together in perfect fellowship and love.Thanks. I hope that where I am wrong, God will use you to show it to me.
It gets right back to what I asked you a moment ago; is there a drowning man in the river? Or is there only a floating lifeless corpse?Yes, always and without exception. Those that seek shall find. I don't disagree with that. The issue I have is that you are not willing to look at why some people seek and some don't seek. I thank God that I sought Him - does that not imply that God is somehow responsible for the fact that I sought Him?
I understand why it makes sense to you. Please look at Acts2:37; they were "pierced to the heart" (smitten in conscience). Rather than BOAST at their "intelligence" in choosing Jesus, they are instead crying in ANGUISH, convicted of their sin. Crying for Him to SAVE them. It is as far away from "personal boasting" as can be.If it was entirely my decision to seek Him, I don't see why I feel like I ought to thank Him because I did. Does that make sense?
Jesus said, "some were unwilling to come to the light, BECAUSE it would expose their (loved) evil deeds". If we are but "corpses floating down the river", then of course we MUST be regenerated BEFORE we can grab the rope. But if we are ALIVE-floating, then (even if not drowning at that moment --- maybe the FALLS are just AHEAD) we have the choice to grab the rope, or not. "Total depravity" (drowning man), or "utter depravity" (corpse).Of course it does. Scripture is designed to encourage seekers. It is designed to be used by God to bring sinners to Christ. But again, what I am trying to get you to consider is why some seek and some don't.
That Jesus would be crucified, was God's secret will (decree). Which person(s) would PARTICIPATE in that crucifixion, was NOT God's choice...Jesus is condemning them for interfering, because they were acting in direct opposition to God's revealed will. They had entirely misinterpreted God's way and God's law and they sought to impose their misunderstanding on others. We would expect Jesus to condemn them for that. At the same time they were clearly fulfilling God's secret will. It was God's secret will that the Jews would oppose Christ and eventually crucify Him.
The Jewish leaders were rebuked for not understanding God's law, even though their lack of understanding was part of God's secret will. It is not our job to try and fulfil God's secret will. We should go by what God has revealed to us.
IF we believe! Look at the end of ROmans9; why did the Israelites fail? Was it not BECAUSE of disobedience and unbelief?Isn't that exactly what Paul is saying in the latter part of Romans 8? Because Christ died, and is risen again, and maketh intercession for us, none can condemn us.
According to 2Tim2:11-13, He is faithful (loving) to us even if we DENY Him and NOT-REIGN with Him (perish!). And they didn't just TRY to keep people from Heaven, in Matt23:13, they succeeded!None can seperate us from the love of Christ. That doesn't mean people won't be punished for trying.
No --- it shows they can be deceived to UNBELIEF. Those three verses in Col2 (6-8) --- how can they NOT mean "deceived to unbelief"? And Heb3:12-14? James1:12-14? 2Peter3:17? There are many verses like that...Incidentally, there verses don't really support your case, because they clearly show that 'believing' is conditional. If a person can be hindered by men from entering in (i.e. believing) then clearly that person's belief is conditional on the behaviour of others - i.e. their will is not free.
Calvinism asserts that "saving-faith" is but a SECOND dispensation of God's monergistic grace. So Paul's words in Eph2:8, become: "For by grace THROUGH GRACE have you been saved; it is NOTHING of yourselves, the unilateral gift from God...."I've no doubt that Jesus' understanding of the doctrines of grace was more advanced than mine. However I can only go by what I have been shown. And I still cannot see how the difference between a person believing and a person not believing can be due to anything within that person. Otherwise grace is no more grace.
Ben johnson said:I'm focusing on Webster's definition of "accountable as being the CAUSE of something". When you pay your taxes --- do you have a choice NOT to? Yes.
Yet Predestination asserts that "regeneration always leads to saving-belief".
In other words, it is "irresistible grace". That which cannot be resisted, cannot be said to be choice.
Thus --- God is "final cause", and we are not responsible (for all that we do flows invariably/unavoidably FROM His sovereign choice and monergistic-regeneration...)
It is my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong), that Calvinists assert "No one seeks God UNLESS He has irresistibly-called them to [chosen] salvation". Thus the question --- do we seek and find? Or does God choose, and THEN we seek?
No. This one:
"Without faith it is impossible to please God. For he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." Heb11:6
The verse does not fit the idea of "monergistic-gifted-faith".
And it fits fully the premise that "seekers find God", rather than "founders seek God".
I seek to differentiate between a depravity that reflects man as completely incapable of saving himself, and a depravity that is beyond hope.
So --- we are totally depraved, there is nothing of worth inherent in our nature.
But UTTER depravity --- conveys a CLIFF, over which is OUTSIDE of redemption.
If Jesus does not sincerely call a certain person to salvation, then he is totally depraved, and utterly depraved.
If a person IS called to salvation, then he is totally depraved, but through Jesus' blood he has HOPE.
Yes! Exactly that! Here is the crux of the argument: in the river, is there a DROWNING MAN, or is there a LIFELESS CORPSE?
I believe that Jesus redeemed ALL MANKIND. See how this fits:
"Jesus is the propitiation (appeasement) for sins; and not for ours ONLY, but also for (the sins of) the WHOLE WORLD." 1Jn2:2
To me, this says "He redeemed the world, but that redeeming atonement must be RECEIVED."
"He is the Savior of all men, chiefly/above-all (malista) BELIEVERS." 1Tim4:10
Savior of all, but effective to believers. Propitiation and redemption OF all, but REALIZED (accepted) by believers.
Jesus said (Jn3:18), that some love the light, some love darkness. I believe that love can be returned to God, or resisted.
I don't see evidence in Scripture of "two calls"; one sincere, one insincere.
I do "put much stock" in passages like Matt22:2-14; by the end of the parable (which, in Jesus' words, illustrates the call to salvation) --- who was NOT called?
It ends, "many are called, but few are chosen".
Where is it conveyed that the KING determined who would respond, and who would not?
Were they not free to accept, or to choose instead farming, business, or their own filthy clothing?
This is "fodder" for a whole other discussion; it would encompass verses like 1Cor2:14 ("A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he CANNOT understand them because they are spiritually appraised [judged].") And I would point out that verse 12 plainly says "the RECEIVED Spirit enables us to know the things freely given to us by God". The Spirit is received by belief
therefore believing in Jesus is NOT one of the "spiritual things that only spiritual men can know".
Belief in Jesus, RECEIVES the Spirit.
The natural man CAN believe.
This is also how I read 1Cor1:21 --- God is pleased to save those who believe THROUGH (in spite of) what they formerly thought foolish...
Does not Eph5:18 admonish us TO be filled with the Spirit?
Does not Col3 admonish us to "set our minds on things above, NOT on earthly things"?
Doesn't the following context convey "life" (above), and "death" (earthly)?
A debt can be forfeit; yes there is consequence; perhaps even jail. But I think it's important that he said "obligation", rather than "compulsion"...
Exactly that! "Obliged TO live in the Spirit". Please read Eph4:17-32 --- does it not read as choice?
Look now at 2Cor13:5; we are to "examine ourselves to see if we are in Christ (and if Christ is IN US)".
So my perception is that we ARE to be filled with Christ, we ARE to be filled with the Spirit, but it is a continual choice.
See Col2:6. And 7. AND 8!!! How do you understand those three verses?
Peter, it is an honor and priviledge to converse with you. I pray that I will be equally open to ANY error, which God will teach me through my brothers. Know this, if I have not said it often enough --- there is a time when "OSAS/OSNAS" does not matter. Two brothers, one OSAS, the other OSNAS, can stand together in perfect fellowship and love.
It gets right back to what I asked you a moment ago; is there a drowning man in the river? Or is there only a floating lifeless corpse?
I understand why it makes sense to you. Please look at Acts2:37; they were "pierced to the heart" (smitten in conscience). Rather than BOAST at their "intelligence" in choosing Jesus,
they are instead crying in ANGUISH, convicted of their sin. Crying for Him to SAVE them.
It is as far away from "personal boasting" as can be.
Conviction turned them to Him; not vice-versa.
Jesus said, "some were unwilling to come to the light, BECAUSE it would expose their (loved) evil deeds".
If we are but "corpses floating down the river", then of course we MUST be regenerated BEFORE we can grab the rope.
But if we are ALIVE-floating, then (even if not drowning at that moment --- maybe the FALLS are just AHEAD) we have the choice to grab the rope, or not.
"Total depravity" (drowning man), or "utter depravity" (corpse).
That Jesus would be crucified, was God's secret will (decree). Which person(s) would PARTICIPATE in that crucifixion, was NOT God's choice...
IF we believe! Look at the end of ROmans9; why did the Israelites fail? Was it not BECAUSE of disobedience and unbelief?
According to 2Tim2:11-13, He is faithful (loving) to us even if we DENY Him and NOT-REIGN with Him (perish!).
And they didn't just TRY to keep people from Heaven, in Matt23:13, they succeeded!
No --- it shows they can be deceived to UNBELIEF.
Those three verses in Col2 (6-8) --- how can they NOT mean "deceived to unbelief"?
And Heb3:12-14?
James1:12-14?
2Peter3:17?
There are many verses like that...
Calvinism asserts that "saving-faith" is but a SECOND dispensation of God's monergistic grace.
So Paul's words in Eph2:8, become: "For by grace THROUGH GRACE have you been saved; it is NOTHING of yourselves, the unilateral gift from God...."
A.T.Robertson, on that passage, says "Grace is GOD'S part, faith is OURS."
Do you understand more of the position from which I'm speaking?
Do we not still agree on the foundational things --- salvation by God's grace, through our faith, UNearned, UNmeritted, UNdeserved---?
Have I damaged your walk in any way? (I pray not) Even if we continue to disagree, I smile in the knowledge that I have driven you deeper into the Word, and closer to God; as you have me!
Agreed; but what still separates you and me, is sequence. Does one become chosen, FROM conviction? Or is one convicted BECAUSE he is chosen?pcwilkins said:So a sinner, until he/she is convinced of the facts that God exists, that they are accountable to God, and that God will punish them if they aren't found in Christ, he/she will not seek Christ.
How do you define, "BORN AGAIN"? To me, the best definition lies in Romans 6. It involves being "crucified/buried/immersed/united/DIED with Christ, in His crucifixion"; AND being likewise united in His resurrection. This throughout Scripture is the consequence of belief; not vice versa.You are looking at this too simplistically. It's not my belief that the decision to seek God is not our decision. What I do believe is that no man would take that decision, unless he saw an attraction in God - and no man sees an attraction in God unless born again.
The reason that most people don't come to Christ is because they don't see their need of Him. And the reason they don't see their need of Him is because they are dead in trespasses and sins, and content to be so.
You'll have to deny that all of those descriptions, do NOT refer to one event. A Christian receives/has-poured/has-gifted/is-felled-upon/is-sealed by the Spirit; and it is "after belief". Can you deny that those six things listed above, refer to one event? Can you deny that they say, "after having believed"?Yes, verse 12 does say that we have received the Spirit. But nowhere does it say that the Spirit is 'received by belief'.
To me, that says: "You cannot see the wind, but it is real, you can see it by its EFFECTS; so too you cannot see spiritual birth, but you can KNOW it by its EFFECTS...""The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."
Technically true; JESUS is our cause. But our part IN becoming saved, is undeniable in many verses --- such as 1Tim4:16: "Take care about yourselves and your teaching; persevere in these things; for as you DO you will SAVE YOURSELVES and those who hear you..."We are responsible (as in 'accountable') for our actions - but we are not responsible (as in 'the cause of') for our own salvation!
What you need to find in Scripture (in support of Calvinism), is "conversion and THEN seeking". But Scripture denies that.Again, it's not that simple. I believe - and I don't pretend to represent Calvin or anyone else - that noone seeks God unless they see an attraction in Him, and that no-one sees an attraction in Him unless they see their need of Him, and that noone sees their need of Him unless born again. Unregenerate man is quite happy without God.
Verse 14 speaks of "things of the Spirit of God"; verse 12 says "things freely given to us by God". Both speak of the same "things".I don't follow your 'therefore'.
And that's why I presented the "drowning or corpse" illustration. A drowning man can RECOGNIZE that he's drowning, and can accept the rope. But a corpse canNOT. Acts2:37 is the perfect example of "conviction that leads to salvation".No. Luke 11:13: "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" We receive the Spirit when we ask for it. And we will not ask for it until we desire it. And we will not desire it until we see our need of it. And we will not see our need of it by nature because by nature we believe we are self-sufficient and we certainly will not depend on God for anything.
A man who is convicted and believes in Jesus, no longer hates God, Peter.Yes, in his head. But not in his heart, not in his spirit. We can believe what we like in a natural way. But true faith - saving faith - "faith which works by love" - cannot come from a God-hating heart.
Conviction is what caused the change. Though it SEEMED foolish, the Gospel still had the power to convict. Conviction and "foolish-to-power" are simultaneous.Yes. And when did they change from thinking it foolish to believing it? And why?
But I respectfully suggest that you're missing the reality that we can also NOT walk in Him. Heb3:12-14 warns us NOT to be deceived by sin to "falling away from the living God". It says, "we are partners in Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance (hold fast to JESUS) firm until the end". The warning continues, describing how the Israelites did not enter THEIR rest (the promised land from Egypt) because of disobedience and unbelief; verse 4:11 LIKEWISE warns US not to "fall and miss entering GOD'S rest (Heaven!) by IMITATING their disobedience and unbelief"!Yes! The same chapter also exhorts us to "Be...followers of God", to "walk in love", to "walk as children of light", to "walk circumspectly", to give "thanks always", and to love our wives "even as" ourselves!
Is the natural man able to do any of these? No! Then why do you think that he is able to "be filled with the Spirit?"
It's really a question of "semantics". Calvinists emphatically deny that "mankind is forced or coerced or compelled to love God". But if it is GOD who first chooses one who is (up until that point) sinful and only desiring defilements, and THEN regenerates him --- and if that regenerated man then unavoidably/invariably/irresistibly LOVES and SEEKS God, then there is no difference between such a "returned-love", and "compelled/forced". Such a man had no choice either to first turn TO God, or second to REFUSE God (after monergistic regeneration)...Let me make it clear - nobody is compelled/forced to love God. He doesn't drive them to it by force - He draws them by love.
We are to test ourselves to see if we are "still in Christ" --- in other words, to see if WE are still CHRISTIAN. There can be no other meaning, can there?Yes! But I don't really see the relevance of this as to what makes a man a seeker.
There is no "almost", Peter; it is fully a choice. Constant. Therein lies the difference between what you have come to believe, and what I have come to believe...You speak almost as if you believe that we can choose to be filled with Christ, filled with the Spirit!
"Wrong doctrines"? What does that mean? If someone DOES embrace a "wrong doctrine", does he still follow the Gospel of Jesus? How could he? And if he is following "wrong doctrines", how is he still saved?Again it says watch out you don't get caught up in wrong doctrines! Do I need God to keep me from doing so? Do I need God to interpret His word to me and enable me to understand it? In short, am I completely dependant on God for everything good? Yes, I am!
"Fall" is an interesting word; it occurs many times. In Heb3:12, in 2Pet3:17, in 1Tim4:1, and many others --- it really reads to me as "fall eternally".It is only when I try to be independant that I fall!
And yet verses such as we just read, 2Cor3:16, plainly say "turn to God and THEN the veil removed". The concepts conveyed by Paul and the Apostles must triumph over what seems reasonable to us.Until God convicts him of his sins and opens his eyes to see that he needs a saviour, he won't seek one. It comes back to the gospel coming in power - I can stand on the bank and shout to him that he needs Christ, that Christ is the saviour of sinners - but unless the word enters with power into his heart, he won't listen!
Mankind is conscious. He can hear --- and "(saving) faith COMES from hearing". Rom10:17 In that same passage, "HOW can they believe WITHOUT preachers?" Belief that hinges on preacher-availability, cannot be predestined.So you accept that men need turning to come to Christ? And who is that can turn them? Isn't this the same as what old-fashioned people call 'conversion'?
But your view is "blissful-ignorant-drowning", meaning "he CANNOT answer" --- so conceptually that is no different from a "corpse who cannot answer"...I havn't said we are corpses floating down the river. I deliberately used 'drowning man', not 'dead man'!
Conviction. Love. I made a similar journey (though not as atheistic) as Josh McDowell; when I realized that there was NO WAY to deny God, or Jesus and the Cross, I had no choice but accept what I knew was real.Ok! But how does a man know he needs to grab the rope? And again we come back to the point - what is it that makes one man grab it, and one not?
It's relevant. Who made the dicision for any one particular person to PARTICIPATE in the Crucifixion? God? Or the one who participated? You see, if "belief" is "CAUSAL", then each person DECIDES to follow OR to oppose God. Therefore eternity is meted out JUSTLY. But if "belief" is "CONSEQUENTIAL", then we are but flotsam and jetsam in the sovereign will of an absolute-controlling God, and salvation and condemnation are HIS exclusive choice.Hmm. But God knew who would do it. At any rate I don't see this as relevant.
Scripture says "BECAUSE they BELIEVED". Unbelief is the ONLY cause for condemnation.Again we come back to this point - is a person saved because Christ died for them, or because they believe that Christ died for them? In other words, are they saved by His death or not?
I understand that's what Calvinism claims; and, that "saving-faith is GIFTED to us (unilaterally, monergistically)".Notice the 'shalls'? Not, "if we abide faithful to Him". Our salvation does not depend on our faithfulness to God, but God's faithfulness to us!
The Greek only uses "ie dunatos" --- so it is translated, "to deceive the elect, if able to". Deceivers fully intend to lead us away from Jesus. Clearly conveyed in 1Jn2:26-28 (from "abiding in Christ"), clear in 2Jn1:7-9 (deceiving us to "going out from us, and leaving behind the teachings of Christ --- so they HAVE NOT GOD!").Yes! And the vast majority of mankind are! But remember what Jesus said in Mark 13:22..."For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect."
If it will be impossible for the false christs and false prophets to deceive the elect, don't you think that it was just as impossible for the scribes and pharisees to do so?
How is it that you recognize "captive to worldly deceptions, AWAY from Christ", but you still see that as "SAVED"? With respect, Peter --- doesn't writing in words like "assurance and other graces", really change what Paul was saying? Doesn't Paul contrast "as you've received Jesus, WALK in Him" --- with "buying into worldly traditions and deceptions and LEAVING Jesus"?This verse does not say that the elect can be deceived to unbelief. It says that Christians should beware of being spoilt through philosophy. The word 'spoil' is as in the military meaning - to carry away treasure. Christian's can lose their assurance and other graces through walking in wrong ways. But they cannot lose their salvation, because THAT was accomplished by the death of Christ, which cannot be undone!
An excellent reference! But Peter says "so THAT the gates of Heaven BE abundantly provided". There are not two entrances to Heaven, Peter; there isn't "abundant" and "sparse"; it's either ABUNDANT, or not at all.This verse simply falls into the same category as "give diligence to make your calling and election sure". Don't be complacent! Don't just assume that you are saved and sit back and relax! Don't assume that Christ died for you and therefore you can do what you want!
Doesn't "thanatos" convey spiritual death? Yes it does. Just as it does in James5:19-20. Contrast this with "nekros" (physical death only) in James2:26...This proves that a Christian can be "drawn away of his own lust, and enticed." But I don't suppose either of us need proof of that - experience tells us the same.
Not "A crown", he says "THE crown of LIFE". It's 100% salvational.It also proves that the Lord has promised a crown "to them that love him". Can the natural man choose to love God? Nope, enmity to God is built into his very nature.
Do you really believe there is such a thing as "unsteadfastly saved"?This proves that God's people need to beware of being led away with the error of the wicked. Perhaps we could even say that it proves that God's people can be led away with the error of the wicked. It proves that they can fall from their own steadfastness.
But do any of these prove that a single one of Christ's sheep can perish? No! It can never be so, because Christ died!
Amen!I'm quite happy for that passage to stay as God intended!
Backatchya!Likewise! Sorry for the long post!
Ben said:I made a similar journey (though not as atheistic) as Josh McDowell; when I realized that there was NO WAY to deny God, or Jesus and the Cross, I had no choice but accept what I knew was real.
My focus is not you, and not what you believe; what each person believes is between himself and God. My focus is on Scripture.I appreciate you trying to 'set me right' (at least as you see it) here...
It's sentience, Peter. Do you ever sit and wonder why it is you who peers through your eyes? Why and how can you think, feel, and reason? Why not someone else? I don't fully understand it myself; but I know I'm conscious.I still don't think we have really got to the bottom of why some people choose to love God while others choose to remain haters of God. Is it something to do with their genetic make-up? Or is it solely to do with what experiences they go through? Or a mixture of both?
Oh I had a choice; I could have refused Him, and gone "my own way". But I had been placing facts on a scale; and there was nothing on the "FALSE" side. I knew Scripture was an accurate record of Jesus. I knew He claimed to be God, and I knew He died on the Cross. I knew He was the Creator; that He was perfect love; that salvation was through Him and no one else.You had no choice? Havn't you consistently been arguing that you did have a choice, and that you took the right option?
Thank you, and thank you also for the time and energy you have invested. You and I are not simply writing to each other; there are potentially millions who could be following along, learning from the discussion. Even in disagreement, you and I both convey the essentials of salvation. You and I both pray that they will read our words, and will receive Jesus the Lord.There's loads more I could write but I think this represents the crux of our differences. Rest assured I have read the rest of your post, and I thank you for taking the time to write it! I know from experience that it takes time!
Ben johnson said:Scripture says "BECAUSE they BELIEVED". Unbelief is the ONLY cause for condemnation.
Ben johnson said:I understand that's what Calvinism claims; and, that "saving-faith is GIFTED to us (unilaterally, monergistically)".
But if we are "saved by grace through faith", then salvation DOES depend on our faithfulness. Will you accept that "faithfulness" means the same thing as "steadfastness", as "obedience", as "perseverance"? There are many verses that charge US with "faithfulness" and "obedience" and "perseverance" and "steadfastness".
You see, if our salvation depends NOT on our faith, but ONLY on God's faith, then God does NOT show justice (either TO the elect or TO the condemned); and mankind has no accountability for doing what he could not avoid...
The Greek only uses "ie dunatos" --- so it is translated, "to deceive the elect, if able to". Deceivers fully intend to lead us away from Jesus. Clearly conveyed in 1Jn2:26-28 (from "abiding in Christ"), clear in 2Jn1:7-9 (deceiving us to "going out from us, and leaving behind the teachings of Christ --- so they HAVE NOT GOD!").
Paul says, "I worry --- that as the serpent deceived Even, you ALSO should be LED AWAY from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ"... 2Cor11:3
How is it that you recognize "captive to worldly deceptions, AWAY from Christ", but you still see that as "SAVED"? With respect, Peter --- doesn't writing in words like "assurance and other graces", really change what Paul was saying? Doesn't Paul contrast "as you've received Jesus, WALK in Him" --- with "buying into worldly traditions and deceptions and LEAVING Jesus"?
An excellent reference! But Peter says "so THAT the gates of Heaven BE abundantly provided". There are not two entrances to Heaven, Peter; there isn't "abundant" and "sparse"; it's either ABUNDANT, or not at all.
Doesn't "thanatos" convey spiritual death? Yes it does. Just as it does in James5:19-20. Contrast this with "nekros" (physical death only) in James2:26...
Not "A crown", he says "THE crown of LIFE". It's 100% salvational.
...and 100% conditional on our "persevering".
Do you really believe there is such a thing as "unsteadfastly saved"?
Amen!
Backatchya!
Cygnus, why do you read it as "IT'S IMPOSSIBLE"?Cygnus said:how is it that the elect cannot be deceived , the text says "if it were possible" or "if able to "
but you say every day it is possible for all Christians to be deceived and to lose salvation!
Ben johnson said:Cygnus, why do you read it as "IT'S IMPOSSIBLE"?
Try reading it like this:
..."For false Christs and false prophets will rise, and will show signs and wonders, to seduce even the elect if they can."
I see nothing in the verse that asserts "it's not REALLY possible". Col2:8 certainly sounds like it's possible. 2Pet3:17 sounds like it's possible. 1Tim4:1 sounds like it's possible. Why do you think James (1:16) and Paul (Eph5:6, 1Cor6:9) say things like "Do not be DECEIVED, beloved brethren"?
"I worry, that as the serpent DECEIVED Eve, you also should be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ." 2Cor11:3
Does that sound like "we CAN'T be deceived"? Or can you put forth a credible premise of: "We can be deceived, and out of devotion to Christ, but STILL SAVED"?
There are so many verses* that can never work in "Predestined-Election", Cygnus. But they work perfectly in "Responsible Grace"...
-----------------
* Matt23:13 (Lk11:52) is one. It states "they CAUSE people to MISS Heaven" --- and it does not fit the idea of "The deceiving-Pharisees were GOD'S PREDESTINED PLAN (in keeping certain people from election)".
Acts10:34-35 is one. If we are "sovereignly predestinedly elect", then God is a respecter of persons. It fits "those who turn to God, He RECEIVES", perfectly; and it fits "God changes them so they CAN (will) turn to Him", not at all.
Yet when faced with these verses on another thread, multiple responses were posted --- "DON'T ARGUE WORDS". Why, in the face of indisputible Scriptural dictate, did everybody suddenly decide "DON'T ARGUE"?
Meaning no insult of course to my brothers and sisters here...
cygnusx1 said:if they can hey ................. well according to you there is no if about it , all the elect can be decieved and all fall away , so there is no room for any doubt .
whereas how I have read it for years is that the deceiver is so powerful that were it not for Election and God's protection of His elect they too would be deceived!
as for arguing over words ....... no i still don't like it ..... for many it is a hobby , for me it is pointless.
btw , I read a good quote by C H Spurgeon today here it is ,
I. First, then, THIS IS FACT. Men say they do not like the doctrine of election. Verily, I do not want them to; but is it not a fact that God has elected some? Ask an Arminian brother about election, and at once his eye turns fiercely upon you, and he begins to get angry, he can't bear it; it is a horrible thing, like a war-cry to him, and he begins to sharpen the knife of controversy at once. But say to him, "Ah, brother! was it not divine grace that made you to differ? Was it not the Lord who called you out of your natural state, and made you what you are? "Oh, yes," he says," "I quite agree with you there." Now, put this question to him: "What do you think is the reason why one man has been converted, and not another?" "Oh," he says, "the Spirit of God has been at work in this man."
Well, then, my brother, the fact is, that God does treat one man better than another; and is there anything wonderful in this fact? It is a fact we recognize every day. There is a man up in the gallery there, that work as hard as he likes, he cannot earn more than fifteen shillings a week; and here is another man that gets a thousand a year; what is the reason of this? One is born in the palaces of kings, while another draws his first breath in a roofless hovel What is the reason of this? God's providence. He puts one man in one position, and another man in another. Here is a man whose head cannot hold two thoughts together, do what you will with him; here is another who can sit down and write a book, and dive into the deepest of questions; what is the reason of it? God has done it. Do you not see the fact, that God does not treat every man alike? He has made some eagles, and some worms; some he has made lions, and some creeping lizards; he has made some men kings, and some are born beggars. Some are born with gigantic minds and some verge on the idiot. Why is this? Do you murmur at God for it? No, you say it is a fact, and there is no good in murmuring. What is the use of kicking against facts? It is only kicking against the pricks with naked feet, and you hurt yourself and not them. Well, then, election is a positive fact; it is as clear as daylight, that God does, in matters of religion, give to one man more than to another. He gives to me opportunities of hearing the word, which he does nor give to the Hottentot. He gives to me, parents who, from infancy, trained me in the fear of the Lord. He does not give that to many of you. He places me afterwards in situations where I am restrained from sin. Other men are cast into places where their sinful passions are developed. He gives, to one man a temper and disposition which keeps him back from some lust, and to another man he gives such impetuosity of spirit, and depravity turns that impetuosity so much aside, that the man runs headlong into sin. Again, he brings one man under the sound of a powerful ministry, while another sits and listens to a preacher whose drowsiness is only exceeded by that of his hearers. And even when they are hearing the gospel, the fact is God works in one heart when be does not in another. Though, I believe to a degree, the Spirit works in the hearts of all who hear the Word, so that they are all without excuse, yet I am sure he works in some so powerfully, that they can no longer resist him, but are constrained by his grace to cast themselves at his feet, and confess him Lord of all; while others resist the grace that comes into their hearts; and it does not act with the same irresistible force that it does in the other case, and they perish in their sins, deservedly and justly condemned. Are not these things facts? Does any man deny them? can any man deny them? What is the use of kicking against facts? I always like to know when there is a discussion, what is the fact. You have heard the story of King Charles the Second and the philosophersKing Charles asked one of them, "What is the reason why, if you had a pail of water, and weighed it, and then put a fish into it, that the weight would be the same?" They gave a great many elaborate reasons for this. At last one of them said, "Is it the fact?" And then they found out that the water did weigh more, just as much more as the fish put into it. So all their learned arguments fell to the ground. So, when we are talking about election, the best thing is to say, "Put aside the doctrine for a moment, let us see what is the fact?" We walk abroad; we open our eyes; we see, there is the fact. What, then, is the use of our discussing any longer? We had better believe it, since it is an undeniable truth. You may alter an opinion, but you cannot alter a fact. You may change a mere doctrine, but you cannot possibly change a thing which actually exists. There it isGod does certainly deal with some men better than he does with others. I will not offer an apology for God; he can explain his own dealings; he needs no defence from me,
"God is his own interpreter,
And he will make it plain;"
but there stands the fact. Before you begin to argue upon the doctrine, just recollect, that whatever you may think about it, you cannot alter it; and however much you may object to it, it is actually true that God did love Jacob, and did not love Esau.
http://www.biblebb.com/files/spurgeon/0239.HTM
The one thing that Calvinsts simply will not accept, is "sentience". Mankind (in their view) is incapable of independant thought. He is so twisted and evil, that he cannot BE called to salvation, can never even THINK of salvation without his heart being regenerated FIRST. It doesn't matter that each (and every!) of the verses used to try to prove "regeneration-precedes-belief", is easily refuted. Case in point, 2Cor4:3-4 ("the Gospel is veiled to the perishing --- in whose case the god of this world has blinded them ...that they might NOT see the light of the Gospel...."). Instead of supporting Calvinism, context very clearly asserts the OPPOSITE sequence: 3:16: "When a man TURNS to the Lord, THEN the veil is removed...."Cygnus said:if they can hey ................. well according to you there is no if about it , all the elect can be decieved and all fall away , so there is no room for any doubt .
whereas how I have read it for years is that the deceiver is so powerful that were it not for Election and God's protection of His elect they too would be deceived!
I do not follow Charles Spurgeon for a simple reason. Scripture is inspired by God, Cygnus; I know you accept that. Scripture says:Spurgeon said:Well, then, my brother, the fact is, that God does treat one man better than another; and is there anything wonderful in this fact? It is a fact we recognize every day. There is a man up in the gallery there, that work as hard as he likes, he cannot earn more than fifteen shillings a week; and here is another man that gets a thousand a year; what is the reason of this? One is born in the palaces of kings, while another draws his first breath in a roofless hovel What is the reason of this? God's providence. He puts one man in one position, and another man in another. Here is a man whose head cannot hold two thoughts together, do what you will with him; here is another who can sit down and write a book, and dive into the deepest of questions; what is the reason of it? God has done it. Do you not see the fact, that God does not treat every man alike?
Ben johnson said:Predestination casts God as a respecter of persons --- and that's an absolute contradiction.
Matt23:13 (Lk11:52) has Jesus condemning PHarisees for "shutting off the kingdom of Heaven from some, preventing them from entering in". That's an absolute contradiction to "predestined-election" --- there is no way harmonize the doctrine with Scripture. If God PREDESTINES, then man CANNOT hinder such a sovereign decision.
It's sentience, Peter. Do you ever sit and wonder why it is you who peers through your eyes? Why and how can you think, feel, and reason? Why not someone else? I don't fully understand it myself; but I know I'm conscious.
What are Non-Christians like? Do they run around with glowing eyes, dripping fangs and gravelly voices? No. They fall in love, marry, and have children. They donate to charity, drive cars, vote. They go on vacation. They enjoy a seven-color sunrise after a spring rain over crisp blue and purple mountains. They think, Peter. I know --- I WAS a non-Christian.
I did not have the Spirit in my heart.
Yet I was able to read the Scripture, and listen to the words.
They made SENSE to me. I knew Jesus lived. I knew what He said about Himself --- that He was God, that He became flesh and died, and lived again; that I might be rescued from the very gates of Hell.
I listened to science --- evolution is impossible. The Universe DOES bear out the claim, "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament shows His handiwork!" Archeology, history, it all "works" --- Scripture is real, it is believable. It happened.
I read about how Jesus treated the prostitute: "Neither do I condemn you; go your way, and do this no more." I understood how impossible it was for her TO go her way and not-sin; and I also undestood how she could do exactly that, if she used HIS strength.
Those words were aimed at me also. I understood how much He loved me. I understood the reason He died on the Cross --- it was the ONLY way that I could live. I understood all of this, and I was not a Christian.
I knew He was real. I knew that when I prayed the prayer to ask Him to be my Lord and my salvation, He would. He would enter my heart, and rebuild me. I was NOT regenerated.
But I believed. I recognized my sinfulness, and in shame I cried out to Him for forgiveness: "Wash me, oh Lord! Cleanse me and make me Yours! Forever!"
A man attested to you by God with miracles and signs, YOU nailed to a cross. God raised Him again, His predestined plan. This man was PROPHESIED --- this Jesus God raised up again, to which we ALL are witnesses. You saw; you know. Therefore let all Israel know for certain that God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ (MESSIAH!!!!!), this Jesus whom YOU CRUCIFIED." When they heard this, they were pierced to the heart (smitten in conscience!), and said: "What shall we do?" Peter said, "Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts2:22-38[/color]
There is the reality, Peter. The Gospel has the power to overcome depravity.
It has the power of salvation. Unregenerated men CAN believe. Rotten sinners CAN recognize their sinfulness and cry out to Him for forgiveness.
Calvinism asserts that "mankind, apart from Jesus cannot do anything good; believing in Him IS good, therefore they must not be ABLE to believe in Him."
Believing in Him is NOT "a good thing we do"; it is "receiving the good thing He DID".
Oh I had a choice; I could have refused Him, and gone "my own way".
But I had been placing facts on a scale; and there was nothing on the "FALSE" side.
I knew Scripture was an accurate record of Jesus. I knew He claimed to be God, and I knew He died on the Cross. I knew He was the Creator; that He was perfect love; that salvation was through Him and no one else.
Why do some REFUSE Him? We have Jesus' own words to answer that; in Jn8:42, Jesus said: "If God WAS your Father, THEN you would love Me." Identical to Jn5:39-47, "If you BELIEVED Moses' words, then you would believe ME. How can you believe, when you seek man's glory rather than God's? You read the Scripture, but it speaks of Me; and you are UNWILLING to come to Me that you may have life."
Unwilling because they are self-focused, and don't really follow God.
Jesus said that if they HAD been following God, they WOULD have believed in Him. From the Old Testament, was "following God" something GOD decided? Certainly not. Deut30:15-20 is very clear; "I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse, prosperity and adversity; so choose life, by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice and following His statutes; for this is life and the length of your days."
Ezk18 speaks of "wicked men turning from their wickedness towards God, and doing righteousness"; and it speaks of "righteous men turning away from God and doing wickedness".
Throughout Scripture sentient conscious men CHOOSE.
Jesus condemns whole cities, Chorazin and Capernaum and Betshaida in Matt11; saying "If THEY had seen what YOU have seen, THEY would have BELIEVED"
I showed you Peter's words in Acts2; he put it before their faces --- they had killed the Messiah. AND --- God has raised Him up again. He both condemned them FOR their abominable actions, and He showed them how it was God's predestined-plan. They were SMITTEN IN CONSCIENCE, and BELIEVED.
Thank you, and thank you also for the time and energy you have invested. You and I are not simply writing to each other; there are potentially millions who could be following along, learning from the discussion. Even in disagreement, you and I both convey the essentials of salvation. You and I both pray that they will read our words, and will receive Jesus the Lord.
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