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Do non-experts really appreciate the work and knowledge of experts?

vossler

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Loudmouth said:
There is evidence that evolution has occurred in the past, and yet you ignore it. So it would seem that you have faith that is held in contradiction to the evidence.
Yes my faith is held in contradiction to the evidence you claim to be true.
Loudmouth said:
From what you have said, no evidence would ever convince you since it is all a deception contructed by Satan. This would also make it dishonest for you to request evidence to begin with.
I don't recall saying no evidence would ever convince me, but if I did please point it out. Yes, I believe evolution to be a deception developed by Satan, but I can't be 100% certain of it. So there is some room for doubt, not much, but some.
Loudmouth said:
Of course not, all of the evidence is a lie and a deception set up by Satan. No matter the quality of the evidence, it doesn't matter. Right?
No, if that were true I'd be a fool. Satan is much smarter than that. He takes actual evidence and information and twists it to his ends in order that we may fall prey to his plan. His ways haven't changed since the Garden of Eden.
Loudmouth said:
Your standard is that anything that contradicts your interpretation of the Bible is a Satanic deception. I would say that your standards are unreasonable.
To some degree that's true, if something contradicts Scripture, it most likely originated with Satan, however it could very well have originated with man himself. Here's the thing that I want you, if possible, to understand. Scripture is the one source of Truth that all of us can rely upon, it's God's manual given to us, for us to use in all aspects of our life. Wherever Scripture speaks about something you can rest assured it is the Truth. That gives me great comfort, so why would I ever entertain something as truth that is contradictory to the Bible?
 
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Loudmouth

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dad said:
Well, since the chimps are said to be so genetically close to man, that could be an indication?

Humans and gibbons also share ERV's, and they are not closely related (as compared to our ape bretheren). In fact, humans share ERV's with all Old World primates.

Also, what is there about any ERV's, and the phylogeny of mutations within shared ERV's, that it could NOT account for!?

Let's just focus on us apes: us, gorillas, chimps, bonobos, and orangutans. The phylogenic tree constructed from morphology gives a branching pattern in the human lineage. The first to branch off are the orangs followed by the gorilla and then the chimp/bonobo group. Of the ERV's shared by all of the apes, the largest sequence differences should be seen in the human-orang comparison since there has been more time for mutations to build up. The least amount of sequence divergence should be seen in the human-chimp comparison. This is exactly what is seen. This is a test of both common ancestory and the phylogeny constructed through morphology.

If shared ERV's between apes is due to interbreeding then such a pattern should not exist. It is just as likely that the human-orang sequences are more alike than the human-chimp sequences.

AS for evidences of pre flood genetics, no one I have heard of has any, old age evolutionists, or creationists. This means I HAVE AS MUCH AS YOU!

What flood?


It is not assumed, it is tested. No one has ever assumed that radioactive half lives were the same in the past. It was concluded by testing the idea through observations. That you prefer your sky daddy stories to real data only damages your argument.

Great, then I dismiss your PO past!!!!! Glad you said that.

The constancy of physical laws are evidenced by the Oklo reactors and several supernova. You can not dismiss it without dealing with this evidence and presenting contradictory evidence.

Of course it is. What we now see and test and observe. And it is great for that. Now, if you want to drag that puppy back to the future, or the past, you better show how it was the same same same.

For cosmology, what we see now is what happened in the past.

Really? What cosmic chemistry testing on the past is this?! What chemistry in geology addresses this exactly? You went and made this claim, and frankly, I don't believe you. Better back it up here.

Sedimentary rock and other rocks can be made in the lab. The conditions and reactions that create rock in the lab are identical to the rocks we see in the geologic record. Chemical reactions in nebula also produce the same chemicals as the reactions here on earth.

Sounds a bit like "If it isn't under my nose it doesn't exist"

Invisible sky daddies are not comparable to my lip. I can see one in the mirror but the other is quite invisible.


Please present me with Adam's DNA and genetic systems to support your claim that genetics were different in the past.
 
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h2whoa

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vossler said:
His ways haven't changed since the Garden of Eden.

Oh I'd say that if your view were correct his ways have changed dramatically. He has created vast amounts of evidence at all levels from the molecular, to the geological to the astrophysical.

He is clearly adept at massive-scale molecular biology. He is very capable of altering geology and creating rock formations and layers (but I though only God created??). He also has much further reaching ability than this. He is quite capable of manipulating fundamental physics to change the universe in it's entirety.

This is quite a change from tricking a naked chick to eat an apple...
 
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dad

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Loudmouth said:
Humans and gibbons also share ERV's, and they are not closely related (as compared to our ape bretheren). In fact, humans share ERV's with all Old World primates.
Nevertheless the principle is the same. If men did wicked things with some creatures then, how is it that it may not have gotten passed on by primates to other primates? Or, did the huge past genetical differences mean that then, hervs could have gotten passed in a more casual way than just through offspring? Seems like all you have to hang on is how it now happens to work.


Precisely how is it detrmined that they "branched off" though, that is the question. Are you talking skull difference, or the herv stuff here, or what?

Of the ERV's shared by all of the apes, the largest sequence differences should be seen in the human-orang comparison since there has been more time for mutations to build up.
No. There was no more than thousands of years, so time is not a major player there.

The least amount of sequence divergence should be seen in the human-chimp comparison. This is exactly what is seen. This is a test of both common ancestory and the phylogeny constructed through morphology.
That is one construct. But DNA differences in primates, and which ones more resemble man need not be looked at in that way.

If shared ERV's between apes is due to interbreeding then such a pattern should not exist. It is just as likely that the human-orang sequences are more alike than the human-chimp sequences.
Well, depends who they interbred with. Or, if the hervs could have been passed by casual sexual contact back then even? How would we know? Now if some pre flood wicked woman, say, had a chimpish child from a chimp or other primate, and later, the chimps mixed with other primates, would not things get passed on down the line there? Or, if some violated monkey, and a violated chimp bred, what might we get? In other words if the idea is that some cross breeding barriers were not there, what combinations can you not think of that would have some shared hervs, and maybe even dna similarities?
Or, if it was possible then to pass on viral infections or whatnots without having to have offspring, then, I think we have at least as many possibilities ther as well. See how I have to question someone flaunting present genetical limitations as some so called proof we were not created?



What flood?
Noah's flood.



It is not assumed, it is tested. No one has ever assumed that radioactive half lives were the same in the past. It was concluded by testing the idea through observations. That you prefer your sky daddy stories to real data only damages your argument.
You are misinformed I think. No one tested the past for decay. They see decay happening, and we see decay products. But the decay process itself is assumed. If the process was itself different, then the 'products' were already there that are found in nature, but were not then part of a decay process at all. So, neither present decay we observe, nor daughter material now in the decay mode mean in any way there was decay, and a decay process in the pre split past. That is pure assumption. Not one I, or the bible agree with, at least as we apply it to the future. Jesus said that rust will not corrupt then.



The constancy of physical laws are evidenced by the Oklo reactors and several supernova. You can not dismiss it without dealing with this evidence and presenting contradictory evidence.
Oh, yes I can. Easily. Oklo really is simply evidence of an ancient nuclear reaction of some type. Much is assumed there. For example billions of years, and what uranium would theoretically have been like then.
"
About 3.5 billions years ago, the geological structure and composition of the planet was very different from the one we know today. The isotopic constitution of natural uranium was characterized by the presence of 235U in a percentage of about 33%. According to the above mentioned details of a fission reaction mechanics, this composition is more than capable for a chain reaction to commence. However the enrichment in 235U does not suffice for a chain reaction to self-sustain, without the presence of a moderator. The uranium has the attribute of being soluble in water only in the presence of oxygen and under his form of oxides. At that time, the atmosphere’s oxygen did not suffice for the uranium tobe dissolved in water.
2 billions years later the conditions were much different. The content of atmosphere in oxygen and hence the oxygen dissolved in water had been increased, while the 235U levels in natural uranium it had been decreased to about 3%. ..."
http://www.e-telescope.gr/en/cat04/art04_021201.htm

Now, what else does it assume? That uranium was more radioactive, for one thing, long ago.

Why was uranium so much more radioactive then? That is a deep question that points to the very origin of the solar system. The formation of the planets (and the Sun) from an original cloud of dust and gas apparently was triggered by the explosion of a nearby supernova. Only a supernova can manufacture elements heavier than iron, including uranium. With a half-life of 700 million years, U-235 started out making up nearly half of all uranium when the solar system began some 4560 million years ago."

http://geology.about.com/od/geophysics/a/aaoklo.htm


See, such a thing is not possible in the present world, to have a natural reactor.
So now we have the whole thing dependant on some imagined explosion and cosmic dust billions of imagined years ago, as part of the deal here!!!!! Not to mention we need to toss in some volcanic activity.
"The uranium content of the Gabon uranium ore probably got to the surface by volcanic activity. Later the surface waters dissolved it from the volcanic rock. About 1.7 million years ago there was enough oxigen in the atmosphere for uranium to oxidize. Uranium oxide, however, is insoluble in water and thus it could settle down in high concentration layers. "
http://www.npp.hu/tortenelem/foldreaktor-e.htm

. In other words, old age belief is used to try to explain a past nuclear reaction. It is just as easy to assume that God set up the reaction for Eden's river, than all that old age Occam's razor dulling stuff. Being in the pre split world, no old age is required.

For cosmology, what we see now is what happened in the past.
No, we see now how it was left in the past.

Which chemical reaction in a Nebula? If you mean decay, yes, of course, it is part of the PO universe. As for water deposited or created rock, why shouldn't we see stuff lab created resemble other rock? What is the point? Did it take billions of years of lab time to create it!?


Invisible sky daddies are not comparable to my lip. I can see one in the mirror but the other is quite invisible.
So is God, and angels, what do your vision limitation prove, you think? Nothing is there but your lip? There are atoms around you don't see, and air, and all sorts of things, besides your mouth.



Please present me with Adam's DNA and genetic systems to support your claim that genetics were different in the past.
What reason do we have to assume it was the same? You'd have to give reason it could not possibly have been different. Or leave it unknown.
 
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Aron-Ra

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vossler said:
Now that is something similar to what I've seen and heard before. It is a bit incomplete and not worded quite right, but otherwise true.
It is also something so superior being would issue. This fate-worse-than-death is what you would expect of someone desparately selling a cheap con. And if your god were really "all-wise" he would know that it appears that way -so that many would suffer undeservedly and many would be saved who were far less worthy than the majority of those lost.
We all will have eternal life, it's just a matter of where we spend it. So yes you can be damned!
Not if the wages of sin are death. Think about it.
There are many things that can have a practical application in the real world which have no scientific background whatsoever.
Name one.
I don't avoid or ignore anything. If that were true I certainly wouldn't being hanging out here in C&E. I assess everything and then make a decision as to what importance said item has on my life and well-being.
But you already admitted that you don't & won't study the finer points of evolution because you have prejudged it in your ignorance.
 
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Aron-Ra

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Nope. Vossler's right. It is the evidence of things hoped for, but not indicated; evidence not seen. Faith isn't just based on insufficient evidence. It is an assertion of an assumption, a complete confidence of conviction that is indefensible by any objective measure and unwarranted. It is a assertion that is assumed without reason and defended against reason as a priori, a conclusion that must never be questioned, tested or surrendered.

"complete trust or confidence. 2 strong belief in a religion. 3 a system of religious belief."
--AskOxford

"Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing, that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence."
--Bartleby.com, Dictionary.com

"Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting solely and implicitly on his authority and veracity; reliance on testimony."
--OneLook

"a firm belief in something for which there is no proof"
--Merriam Webster Online Dictionary.

"Belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof,."
--Encarta

"For quite a lot of people, faith or the lack thereof, is an important part of their identities. E.g. a person will identify him or herself as a Muslim or a skeptic. Many religious rationalists, as well as non-religious people, criticise implicit faith as being irrational. In this view, belief should be restricted to what is directly supportable by logic or evidence."
--Wikipedia

"Faith is the acceptance of the truth of a statement in spite of insufficient or contradictory evidence. …Faith is a cop-out. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can’t be taken on its own merits.”
--Dan Barker, "Losing Faith in Faith; From Preacher to Atheist", 1992
 
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vossler

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Who's the judge of what undeserved suffering is? How about the worthiness of someone's salvation? Not you or I, but God. He's given us the ground rules and told us the requirements, we have no one to blame but ourselves if we don't follow them.
Aron-Ra said:
Not if the wages of sin are death. Think about it.
This is speaking of physical death, not the spiritual life I was referring to.
Aron-Ra said:
Name one.
Prayer.
Aron-Ra said:
But you already admitted that you don't & won't study the finer points of evolution because you have prejudged it in your ignorance.
What use would studying the finer points of evolution provide if I didn't understand or comprehend them? If there is value in the knowledge it will be made known without a tremendous amount of in-depth study. Once known this then would prompt a desire for more. Prejudging something states one made a judgment on a topic that was without sufficient evidence or knowledge of said topic. That begs the question as to what is sufficient? If it means years of study in the related sciences, well then yes you're right, I've prejudged evolution.
 
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TexasSky

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I don't think it is a question of "doubting the experts in the field." I think it is a question of "trusting one expert vs trusting another expert."

There is also strong suspicion of bias - especially when the person you are talking to makes extremely prejudicial comments or labels any expert who disagrees with their view as "incompetent."

In fact - that is probably the quickest way to make me distrust anything you say.

If you come to me and say, "I spoke to this expert, here are their credentials, and this is what they said," I can discuss facts and issues with you. I can offer you counter arguements like, "This expert said .......," and you can counter, and we'll discuss for minutes or hours, and you might win me over to your view.

If you start off with statements that indicate you think anyone who disagrees with your view is insane, or uneducated, or ignorant, or if you say, "I won't listen to your experts because they're all crackpots," I won't take any word you say after that seriously because you've just stated you are NOT discussing facts, you've made up your mind to reject anything that disagrees with your view. You've invalidated your expert by your own admission that you support a narrow minded one-sided view point.
 
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Pete Harcoff

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TexasSky said:
I don't think it is a question of "doubting the experts in the field." I think it is a question of "trusting one expert vs trusting another expert."

But what if 95-99% of the experts in a given field agree? Does the remaining 1-4% carry equal weight just because they have a different view?

There is also strong suspicion of bias - especially when the person you are talking to makes extremely prejudicial comments or labels any expert who disagrees with their view as "incompetent."

For sure. But at the same time, there comes a point where you can't do much but label someone else incompetent. All opinions and views are not created equally. There has to be some criteria for distinguishing between ideas.

In fact - that is probably the quickest way to make me distrust anything you say.

Really? So you automatically lend credence to everything you hear, no matter how outlandish?


But the truth of the matter is some people are crackpots. Not everyone is rational or sane. People get swept up in the emotional evolvement of an idea and don't objectively look at things. And some people just want to go against the flow, no matter which direction it's flowing in. It's just human nature.

To put things in the context of creationism vs. mainstream science, on the one hand you have about 150+ years of scientific consensus from literally hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of scientists from different cultural backgrounds, religious beliefs, and eras about things like evolution, geology, astronomy, cosmology, etc. Sure they disagree on the details, but in the broad scheme of things there is quite a bit of agreement. And on the other hand you have an extreme minority of scientists all with obvious religious affiliation/motivation and expounding a view that is couched in their religion.

So don't even pretend these two sides are anywhere equal, because they are not. Not by a long shot.
 
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TexasSky

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Dracil said:
Great, then perhaps Creationists will stop trying to dictate what other people's childrens should be taught in school.

Why would you be afraid to present both sides of the debate? Especially if you are positive that evidence is on your side?

When did "censorship of opposing views" become "acceptable"?

Isn't the basis of academics and of science, exploring ideas?

Creationists are not asking that evolution NOT be taught, they are only asking to be allowed to present their experts and their view points.

If, as you say, it is such a slam-dunk in favor of evolution, present both sides and let the facts speak for themselves.
 
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Lilandra

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We report him?
It is against forums rules to derail a thread.

I am tired of the way he fouls up a good thread. Page after page of offtopic rambling.

 
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Pete Harcoff

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This sounds like a fair and democratic idea on the surface, but it's a ruse. Creationists only want their ideas in the classroom because they feel threatened. They aren't out there championing all of the other fallen ideas in science in the interest of "fair play". Nope, they are singling out the specific ideas they feel contradict their religion.

They are also ignoring the fact that scientific ideas aren't hashed out in the classroom, they are hashed out in the scientific community. This is the way it has been for centuries and this is where the overturning of old ideas and the proliferation of new ideas has come from. The fact is, creationism lost 150-200 years ago. Just like many many other fallen ideas in science. And that is why it has no place in the science classroom.
 
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TexasSky

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Pete Harcoff said:
But what if 95-99% of the experts in a given field agree? Does the remaining 1-4% carry equal weight just because they have a different view?

I hope your science is better than your math.

To answer your question though - the greatest scientific discoveries of the last 100 years have been made by the 1% that rejected the accepted status quo of the 99%.

If, however, the 99% is correct, they should be able to stand up against the 1% with evidence. It should not be necessary to "silence" via censorship, insults, name calling, etc., the inaccurate.

For sure. But at the same time, there comes a point where you can't do much but label someone else incompetent. All opinions and views are not created equally. There has to be some criteria for distinguishing between ideas.

If an individual was labeled an expert in their field - UNTIL - they disagreed on one subject, they should not automatically be discredited based on their view in that one area.

This is what is happening time and time again in regards to Intelligent Design vs Evolution. Individuals who were respected faculty members of major unversities, who were respected scientists in their fields of study, who were even considered experts and won awards for research who come out and say anything that lends doubt to evolution or support to the possibility of intelligent design or young earth is instantly labeled as incompetent.

I posted an article just the other day where a scientist presented a paper to a science journal that was reviewed by an editorial committee of scientists who found his research to be valid, and who was never contradicted on the factual information of his article, but was criticized for having submitted the article because it fell into the side of the equation that would weaken the arguement for evolution - by people who ADMITTED they had not read the article or tested the research.

I also surmise that thankfully men like Pasteur were not intimidated by the fact that 99% of the science AND medical community labeled him a crackpot while he was doing his research.

Really? So you automatically lend credence to everything you hear, no matter how outlandish?

I don't insult people, label them ignorant or fear hearing them out just because they hold a different view than I do. I listen to their arguments, and I debate the issues on factual basis. I submit my experts and I listen to what theirs say. I compare.

I only refuse to listen when they resort to labeling others as ignorant, stupid, etc. I recognize bias and fear, and I recognize prejudice. I have zero tolerance for prejudice.


It is also human nature to attack when a person fears, even to kill when a person is angry. That doesn't make it RIGHT to give into that nature.

As to "going against the flow".... my country was founded on "going against the flow". Most scientific discovery came about by "going against the flow".

I do agree that no everyone is rational or sane. I think it is irrational to be afraid to present two sides of an argument. I think it is insane to automatically label people who disagree with you on an academic issue as "irrational" or "insane".


I'm sorry, but there is a difference in when Darwin wrote his theory, and when it became accepted.

Evoluton, especially as it is taught today, is a very new science, and it was not "accepted" by millions of scientists from different backgrounds until very, very recently. It was flat out rejected until around 1950. In 1960 French scientists openly revolted in protest against it.

Many of the details they disagree on are pretty major ones when taken in context of the whole theory since each part of the theory must relay on the other elements. For instance - I noticed on this board, a tremendous rush of people to say that abiogensis has nothing to do with evolution. Well, if they want to talk about evolution strictly from a "micro evolution" status, I'll buy that. I might even buy that if they only want to talk about the biological evolution in regards to already living organims, I'll let them off the hook. When they start using evolution as validation for rejecting creationism though - they are going to HAVE to include all the elements of evolution in regards to origin of life because THAT is the real issue in "Intelligent Design" vs "evolution". And if you talk evolution and origin of life you HAVE to address primordial soup, and abiogensis. And when you get into that... well....

So, your side of this debate has said, "We're just going to say that isn't part of evolution." Which makes as much sense as a Christian saying, "Well, we just won't mention God when we talk about Creation." Its a very obvious attempt to avoid what you don't know how to answer, and it makes a creationist go, "Suuuurrrreeee your theory is strongly, scientifically accurate."

And, frankly, the number of scientists who question evolution as it is currently taught is NOT limited to Christians or other people who favor creation. Nor are all creationists outspoken about their personal belief that evolution is a flawed theory. You can be a brilliant man with a doctorate in physics who sees flaws in the theory who doesn't feel like wading neck deep into the debate because you are trying to complete research on something you think will benefit mankind. So you don't show up on lists presenting you on one side or the other of a debate. There is also the simple fact that some are afraid to speak up in public right now because they have seen the zealotry in trying to push evolution and they are afraid of the zealots. They are the "side" names you find listed at the bottom of articles. The men and women who, when pinned down, and asked, point blank, "Is this statement right," answer, but don't want to get involved in the whole debate.

So don't even pretend these two sides are anywhere equal, because they are not. Not by a long shot.

You're right. They are NOT equal. The creationists aren't trying to totally silence the evolutionists. The creationists aren't afraid to let you speak your side. The creationists aren't trying to discredit your researchers, they aren't calling you insane or ignorant. They aren't trying to harm your side. All they want is a chance to have their side heard.

So no, it isn't equal. One side is acting like they have to stomp out anyone who doesn't agree with them, and the other side is only trying to be heard.
 
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Loudmouth said:
There is evidence that evolution has occurred in the past, and yet you ignore it. So it would seem that you have faith that is held in contradiction to the evidence.

In another place on the thread you discuss several elements of evolutionary theory and make a reference to the consistancy of physical law.

So I want from you (not from one of the many "how to answer Creationist) web sites out there (I've found a lot of scientific inaccuracies in them posted as if it is fact).. but from YOU personally...... your opinion on the following things.

1) Do you understand that when you are debating "Creationism" via supporting "evolution" that you MUST discuss "origin of life" in terms "first life"?

2) Do you understand that when you get into a discussion of origin of life in regards to evolution vs creationism, you're going to end up having to deal with chemical evolution and primordial soup and abiogensis?

3) Given 1 and 2 - Do you believe in Big Bang or not? If you answer not - how do you explain primordial soup? Or origin of life? What is your evolutionary explanation for the very existence of life? Your "beginning point?"

4) If you accept Big Bang - have you given serious consideration to the questions scientists (not just Christians or creationists) have raised with the theory? Especially in regards to thermodynamics?

5) Have you, when you "look at what people believe" given serious consideration to questions raised by Young Earth and Intelligent Design people, in general? Or have you relied upon websites that claim to refute them? Have you taken the time and effort to try to determine which site is accurately reporting scientific data?
For instance - the helium question.
Typically - Young Earth supporters state that the amount of helium in the atmosphere is not statistically compliant with a 4.6 billion year existence.
Typically - Old earth supporters state, the atomosphere loses helium, so it balance.
FACTUALLY - The rate it builds up exceeds the rate it is lost. When throws the debate back into the corner of the YEC.

Given that, have you taken the time to look for a scientific fact that would anwer the YEC question? Is there some evidence that the atmosphere lost helium at a faster rate? Or produced it at a slower rate? That a cataclysmic event somehow freed it?

If you HAVE that evidence - why don't you respond with that type of evidence rather then just label the YEC "ignorant?"

If you DON'T have that evidence - isn't the YEC right?

In regards to DNA - certainly there are similiarites in humans to apes. There are similarities to other animals too, but you can't possibly cross breed a human to a pig, no matter how many similiarties there are. (And I don't know if they have tried, but I'm betting you can't cross them with an ape either.) So - given that you can't do this kind of cross breeding in controlled scientific labs and produce anything close to what you want - how did natural selection, mutation, etc, account for macro evolution?

And last - why are evolutionists afraid to answer these questions without slinging insults?
 
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TexasSky

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What makes you think you have the knowledge or the right to determine what Creationists want? And - frankly, even if you are right, what gives you the right to silence them if your intention is NOT to stomp of their religion?

Christians, Muslims and other individuals from highly moral groups have allowed people we disagree with have a voice in our schools time and time and time again in the interest of "fairness" and time and time and time again, those same people we offered a voice to have moved to totally silence any view other than their own.

I happen to support sex education, but I believe, strongly, that it should include discussions about the value of abstinence, and the dangers of STD's even WITH condom use. In many schools across the nation any curriculum that refers to abstinence or implies condoms are not really "safe sex" is banned. This is a moral issue and a health issue.

MANY people, Christian, athiest, Muslim, and other have moral issues with certain life style choices and believe it is wrong to teach children they are "normal" but they respected the rights of people they disagreed with to be heard, and now there is curriculum in the public schools that teaches validation of moral views they personally disagree with.

They went from being able to pray in schools to being told they couldn't hold voluntary prayer meetings on school grounds.

Each time, they gave ground to be fair.

Now, when they ask for fairness in return, like Hitler in Germany, anti-Christians, anti-Muslims, anti-Jews scream, "Shut up and get out of our schools."

We are NOT making unreasonable demands. We are NOT saying, "stop teaching what you believe," we are NOT saying, "let us open up a seminary in the schools." We ARE saying, "Evolution is an unproven theory, we want an opportunity to discuss the doubts about it openly, and to discuss possible alternative views."

And discrimination is wrong.
You can sugar coat it, pat yourself on the back about it, puff your chest out and say, "Its okay this time because you're wrong," but the fact is, discrimination is wrong, and in the US, the constitution guaranteed EVERYONE - - EVEN Christians - freedom of religion.
 
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TexasSky

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P.S. - The only thing I feel threatened about is the growing attitude in the United States that Christians must be silenced, ridiculed, pushed aside, and silenced.

Your opinion of how the universe created is not going to change how it was created, nor is mine.

Your opinion of my faith is not going to change my faith.

What I fear is the open hostility toward Christians. The growing movements to label our views, our beliefs in a negative light. Frankly, I find it easier to discuss Christianity with Muslims than I do with young athiests and young agnostics.
The Muslims I know aren't hateful or hostile. They don't seem to fear us.
The young agnostics and young athiests are almost rabidly hateful.
 
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Pete Harcoff

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TexasSky said:
I hope your science is better than your math.

I forgot to include the disclaimer of a 1% margin of error.

To answer your question though - the greatest scientific discoveries of the last 100 years have been made by the 1% that rejected the accepted status quo of the 99%.

Yes. And this is what happened to creationism. 150-200 years ago. Most creationists, however, seem to forget or ignore this then claim science is toletarian.


But you need to understand that this is happening by invariably such supporters of YEC or ID or whatever are expounding a religious view. The religious backing and motivation for these ideas is transparent. This is one of the main reasons there is such a backlash. People know this is about pushing conservative Christianity, not about some scientific revolution.

And on top of that, many of the ideas being pushed were overturned 150-200 years ago. It's just that creationists can't let go of the ideas because their religious beliefs demand it. It's not like this is a secret, either. Creationist groups are first-and-foremost religious ministries.


But you have to realize that this cuts both ways. AiG has a mandate that they won't consider any view that contradicts their religious beliefs. Period. Do you hold them in the same view? Do you have zero tolerance for their prejudice?


I think I'm going to have to ask for your source on this because what I have read in the history books suggests otherwise, at least regarding the acceptence of Darwin's ideas.


But the theory of evolution doesn't depend on abiogenesis. Life is needed for life to evolve. We know life came from somewhere, so that's all we need for the ToE as we have a pretty good idea of the history of life on Earth.

Creationists just like to attack abiogenesis because they know it's an area of less understanding than evolutionary biology. It's an easier target.


Again, almost all of those speaking out against evolution are doing so from transparent religious positions. The creation/evolution debate really is about Christianity first and foremost.


The zealotry is coming from the creationists who refuse to accept that their ideas got tossed out 150-200 years ago and replaced with newer ideas. They are the ones who are kicking up the fuss and attempting to alter school cirriculums, despite the fact that the overwelming consensus of the scientific community is that evolution is a valid scientific theory. They are the ones who cry "conspiracy" when their ideas don't stand up to scientific scrutiny. Heck, they are the ones pushing for ID in the classroom. They are the ones who have polarized the debate and they have themselves to blame.

The scientific backlash is to prevent religiously motivated ideas from masquerading as science. There is no benefit to giving into creationists.


They have had it and they continue to have it. But they don't just want "a chance to have their side heard". They want to have their side enforced by public policy.

So no, it isn't equal. One side is acting like they have to stomp out anyone who doesn't agree with them, and the other side is only trying to be heard.

Oh, c'mon. If you really believe creationists are so downtrodden, then I have a bridge to sell you. The fact is creationist ideas were overturned in one of those very scientific revolutions that began with the minority. The reason creationism is still around is because of religion. Go to any creationist site, group, whatever, and try to tell me they aren't pushing a religious belief first-and-foremost. Creationists are threatened by mainstream science because they feel it contradicts their religious beliefs. This is the only reason there is such a fuss over evolution today.

This is why my opinion is that it's not creationism that needs to be taught in the classrooms. It's evolution that needs to be taught in the churches.
 
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Pete Harcoff

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TexasSky said:
What makes you think you have the knowledge or the right to determine what Creationists want? And - frankly, even if you are right, what gives you the right to silence them if your intention is NOT to stomp of their religion?

I don't want to stomp out Christianity. I just don't want religion being taught as science.


But we aren't talking about moral opinions, now. We are talking about scientific theories. Scientific theories are morally neutral.


Oh for crying out...

Look, we are talking scientific ideas in a science classroom. Okay? We're not talking about silencing religious beliefs. I don't care what creationists believe. If they want to share their ideas with other, they most certainly have and should have the freedom to do so.

But what I don't want is their ideas, which have been firmly rejected by the scientific community (i.e. the very experts we employ to determine what is and isn't valid science), endorsed by school cirriculums as valid science!

It's not about some Gestapo-like crusade to rid the world of creationists. It's about protecting valid science and valid science education from those with a religious axe to grind.
 
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Pete Harcoff

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"Yes, the long war on Christianity. I pray that one day we may live in an America where Christians can worship freely! In broad daylight! Openly wearing the symbols of their religion.... perhaps around their necks? And maybe - dare I dream it? - maybe one day there can be an openly Christian President. Or, perhaps, 43 of them. Consecutively." - Jon Stewart

The Christian persecution complex is a myth. Christians are probably the least persecuted group in the U.S. You may want to check some stats from this page on polls about Americans and their views on other religious beliefs. Christians seem to be viewed pretty positively, while atheists not so much. I especially like the poll that shows that even in 1999, less than half of Americans would vote for an atheist president. And you want to talk persecution?
 
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