Do Most Protestants Disagree with the Notion of Free Will?

15 וְאֵיבָ֣ה אָשִׁ֗ית בֵּֽינְךָ֙ וּבֵ֣ין הָֽאִשָּׁ֔ה וּבֵ֥ין זַרְעֲךָ֖ וּבֵ֣ין זַרְעָ֑הּ ה֚וּא יְשׁוּפְךָ֣ רֹ֔אשׁ וְאַתָּ֖ה תְּשׁוּפֶ֥נּוּ עָקֵֽב׃ ס
16 אֶֽל־ הָאִשָּׁ֣ה אָמַ֗ר הַרְבָּ֤ה אַרְבֶּה֙ עִצְּבֹונֵ֣ךְ וְהֵֽרֹנֵ֔ךְ בְּעֶ֖צֶב תֵּֽלְדִ֣י בָנִ֑ים וְאֶל־ אִישֵׁךְ֙ תְּשׁ֣וּקָתֵ֔ךְ וְה֖וּא יִמְשָׁל־ בָּֽךְ׃ ס 17 וּלְאָדָ֣ם אָמַ֗ר כִּֽי־ שָׁמַעְתָּ֮ לְקֹ֣ול אִשְׁתֶּךָ֒ וַתֹּ֙אכַל֙ מִן־ הָעֵ֔ץ אֲשֶׁ֤ר צִוִּיתִ֙יךָ֙ לֵאמֹ֔ר לֹ֥א תֹאכַ֖ל מִמֶּ֑נּוּ אֲרוּרָ֤ה הָֽאֲדָמָה֙ בַּֽעֲבוּרֶ֔ךָ בְּעִצָּבֹון֙ תֹּֽאכֲלֶ֔נָּה כֹּ֖ל יְמֵ֥י חַיֶּֽיךָ׃ 18 וְקֹ֥וץ וְדַרְדַּ֖ר תַּצְמִ֣יחַֽ לָ֑ךְ וְאָכַלְתָּ֖ אֶת־ עֵ֥שֶׂב הַשָּׂדֶֽה׃ 19 בְּזֵעַ֤ת אַפֶּ֙יךָ֙ תֹּ֣אכַל לֶ֔חֶם עַ֤ד שֽׁוּבְךָ֙ אֶל־ הָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה כִּ֥י מִמֶּ֖נָּה לֻקָּ֑חְתָּ כִּֽי־ עָפָ֣ר אַ֔תָּה וְאֶל־ עָפָ֖ר תָּשֽׁוּב׃ 20 וַיִּקְרָ֧א הָֽאָדָ֛ם שֵׁ֥ם אִשְׁתֹּ֖ו חַוָּ֑ה כִּ֛י הִ֥וא הָֽיְתָ֖ה אֵ֥ם כָּל־ חָֽי׃
21 וַיַּעַשׂ֩ יְהוָ֨ה אֱלֹהִ֜ים לְאָדָ֧ם וּלְאִשְׁתֹּ֛ו כָּתְנֹ֥ות עֹ֖ור וַיַּלְבִּשֵֽׁם׃ פ
22 וַיֹּ֣אמֶר יְהוָ֣ה אֱלֹהִ֗ים הֵ֤ן הָֽאָדָם֙ הָיָה֙ כְּאַחַ֣ד מִמֶּ֔נּוּ לָדַ֖עַת טֹ֣וב וָרָ֑ע וְעַתָּ֣ה פֶּן־ יִשְׁלַ֣ח יָדֹ֗ו וְלָקַח֙ גַּ֚ם מֵעֵ֣ץ הַֽחַיִּ֔ים וְאָכַ֖ל וָחַ֥י לְעֹלָֽם׃ 23 וַֽיְשַׁלְּחֵ֛הוּ יְהוָ֥ה אֱלֹהִ֖ים מִגַּן־ עֵ֑דֶן לַֽעֲבֹד֙ אֶת־ הָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה אֲשֶׁ֥ר לֻקַּ֖ח מִשָּֽׁם׃ 24 וַיְגָ֖רֶשׁ אֶת־ הָֽאָדָ֑ם וַיַּשְׁכֵּן֩ מִקֶּ֨דֶם לְגַן־ עֵ֜דֶן אֶת־ הַכְּרֻבִ֗ים וְאֵ֨ת לַ֤הַט הַחֶ֙רֶב֙ הַמִּתְהַפֶּ֔כֶת לִשְׁמֹ֕ר אֶת־ דֶּ֖רֶךְ עֵ֥ץ הַֽחַיִּֽים׃ ס
Nothing about removal of free will here, either.

Lee52 said:

Also, I am not a dispensationalist.

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Neither am I.

Jesus was the fulfillment of the Law.

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Right.

He did not come to abolish the Law, only to fulfill the Law.

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Fulfilling it is a change.

GOD's Grace has always saved us through faith in Him. You are right, GOD has not changed.

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Then we are agreed.

Albion said:

What do you think the consequences of sin are, then? Unclouded judgment, the ability to please God by our own resources, what?

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I do not have to think about it.
Quite simply, the Bible says clearly that the wages of sin is spiritual death. Permanent separation from GOD, forever with no opportunity to reconcile the broken relationship once we die on this earth, the earthly death.

The reconciliation, according to Scripture, is belief in Jesus' Name. The Name above all names. The Bible clearly tells us to repent and believe.
The Holy Spirit brings conviction upon us spiritually. It is up to us to surrender to that conviction. Surrender is not works. Surrender is the antithesis to works.

Albion said:

Fulfilling it is a change.

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A change only in circumstance, not a change in GOD, not a change in man.

It is the change in circumstance that GOD provided in His foreknowledge of man's choices.

Be blessed,
Lee52

Lee52 said:

15 וְאֵיבָ֣ה אָשִׁ֗ית בֵּֽינְךָ֙ וּבֵ֣ין הָֽאִשָּׁ֔ה וּבֵ֥ין זַרְעֲךָ֖ וּבֵ֣ין זַרְעָ֑הּ ה֚וּא יְשׁוּפְךָ֣ רֹ֔אשׁ וְאַתָּ֖ה תְּשׁוּפֶ֥נּוּ עָקֵֽב׃ ס
16 אֶֽל־ הָאִשָּׁ֣ה אָמַ֗ר הַרְבָּ֤ה אַרְבֶּה֙ עִצְּבֹונֵ֣ךְ וְהֵֽרֹנֵ֔ךְ בְּעֶ֖צֶב תֵּֽלְדִ֣י בָנִ֑ים וְאֶל־ אִישֵׁךְ֙ תְּשׁ֣וּקָתֵ֔ךְ וְה֖וּא יִמְשָׁל־ בָּֽךְ׃ ס 17 וּלְאָדָ֣ם אָמַ֗ר כִּֽי־ שָׁמַעְתָּ֮ לְקֹ֣ול אִשְׁתֶּךָ֒ וַתֹּ֙אכַל֙ מִן־ הָעֵ֔ץ אֲשֶׁ֤ר צִוִּיתִ֙יךָ֙ לֵאמֹ֔ר לֹ֥א תֹאכַ֖ל מִמֶּ֑נּוּ אֲרוּרָ֤ה הָֽאֲדָמָה֙ בַּֽעֲבוּרֶ֔ךָ בְּעִצָּבֹון֙ תֹּֽאכֲלֶ֔נָּה כֹּ֖ל יְמֵ֥י חַיֶּֽיךָ׃ 18 וְקֹ֥וץ וְדַרְדַּ֖ר תַּצְמִ֣יחַֽ לָ֑ךְ וְאָכַלְתָּ֖ אֶת־ עֵ֥שֶׂב הַשָּׂדֶֽה׃ 19 בְּזֵעַ֤ת אַפֶּ֙יךָ֙ תֹּ֣אכַל לֶ֔חֶם עַ֤ד שֽׁוּבְךָ֙ אֶל־ הָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה כִּ֥י מִמֶּ֖נָּה לֻקָּ֑חְתָּ כִּֽי־ עָפָ֣ר אַ֔תָּה וְאֶל־ עָפָ֖ר תָּשֽׁוּב׃ 20 וַיִּקְרָ֧א הָֽאָדָ֛ם שֵׁ֥ם אִשְׁתֹּ֖ו חַוָּ֑ה כִּ֛י הִ֥וא הָֽיְתָ֖ה אֵ֥ם כָּל־ חָֽי׃
21 וַיַּעַשׂ֩ יְהוָ֨ה אֱלֹהִ֜ים לְאָדָ֧ם וּלְאִשְׁתֹּ֛ו כָּתְנֹ֥ות עֹ֖ור וַיַּלְבִּשֵֽׁם׃ פ
22 וַיֹּ֣אמֶר יְהוָ֣ה אֱלֹהִ֗ים הֵ֤ן הָֽאָדָם֙ הָיָה֙ כְּאַחַ֣ד מִמֶּ֔נּוּ לָדַ֖עַת טֹ֣וב וָרָ֑ע וְעַתָּ֣ה פֶּן־ יִשְׁלַ֣ח יָדֹ֗ו וְלָקַח֙ גַּ֚ם מֵעֵ֣ץ הַֽחַיִּ֔ים וְאָכַ֖ל וָחַ֥י לְעֹלָֽם׃ 23 וַֽיְשַׁלְּחֵ֛הוּ יְהוָ֥ה אֱלֹהִ֖ים מִגַּן־ עֵ֑דֶן לַֽעֲבֹד֙ אֶת־ הָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה אֲשֶׁ֥ר לֻקַּ֖ח מִשָּֽׁם׃ 24 וַיְגָ֖רֶשׁ אֶת־ הָֽאָדָ֑ם וַיַּשְׁכֵּן֩ מִקֶּ֨דֶם לְגַן־ עֵ֜דֶן אֶת־ הַכְּרֻבִ֗ים וְאֵ֨ת לַ֤הַט הַחֶ֙רֶב֙ הַמִּתְהַפֶּ֔כֶת לִשְׁמֹ֕ר אֶת־ דֶּ֖רֶךְ עֵ֥ץ הַֽחַיִּֽים׃ ס
Nothing about removal of free will here, either.

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Neither does it say we have a freewill !!!

Can you find any of those verses for us ?

You talk about them, but they appear to be phantoms.



How about a working definition of freewill, not just subjective relativism.

While you are working on that...have you located the freewill yet ?

What part of your body/mind/soul does it take up residence ?

bottomofsandal said:

How about a working definition of freewill, not just subjective relativism.

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Well said. That was my point initially, but it got sidelined by demands for certain evidences, postings of lengthy passages of scripture without any exegesis, etc. It probably would help if we got back to the basic issue before working forward.

bottomofsandal said:

What part of your body/mind/soul does it take up residence ?

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How about this:

"I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. Romans 12:1-2 ESV.

In order for us to discern what is the will of GOD, we must surely be transformed by the renewal of our mind. So, by default, man's will is in our mind.

Be blessed,
Lee52

bottomofsandal said:

Neither does it say we have a freewill !!!

Can you find any of those verses for us ?

You talk about them, but they appear to be phantoms.



How about a working definition of freewill, not just subjective relativism.

While you are working on that...have you located the freewill yet ?

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Not I, but the disciple Peter will answer your above questions. Peter is speaking to born-again Christians. His words are self-explanatory. If you do not see the free will of Christians being addressed, then I am incompetent to teach you, and so is Peter. If that is the case, I guide you to Paul's first letter to the Church, (Christians) in Corinth. BTW, whom besides you and I are guilty of subjective relativism?

This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

free will
n 1. (Philosophy) a. the apparent human ability to make choices that are not externally determined
b. the doctrine that such human freedom of choice is not illusory Compare determinism
c. (as modifier) a free-will decision

2. the ability to make a choice without coercion he left of his own free will: I did not influence him

Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
The Message of Salvation to All

For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. Romans 10:1-17 ESV

Then Paul goes on to talk to the plight of Israel in relationship to Jesus. Now I know that you believe that the word "ALL" in everything that I post does not really mean all. To you, it only means all who are the elect few. But the words are what they are, there is no mention of only the elect here. How about this; I have provided you Scriptures at your request. You have provided me with none. So, find me Scriptural backing that everytime the word ALL is used in the NT, it is only applying "ALL" to the elect few. Is that too much to ask? Is that being contentious? Apparently all my years in a Christian university and ministerial studies have been deficient, because I have never seen "ALL" and the elect in the same exact sentence in the Bible speaking to the exact same people. Would you mind showing me the verses that I have missed, so that I might be edified?
Thanks,
Be blessed,
Lee52

bottomofsandal said:

Sorry bro, obedience requires ability and willingness. Yes, The Bible is full of instructions, none of which the carnal mind and heart are able to fulfill. Are you really saying sinful man, in a sinful state, can please Holy God ?

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Apparently they can IF they respond to the leading of the Holy Spirit. The mind and heart are one in the same. Take a look at Romans 12:1-3, the renewing of our mind is NOT a one time process. It is a constant process. Our carnal nature is ALWAYS with us and we learn, through our walk in Jesus by the Holy Spirit, how to ignore and make that carnal nature subservient to the Holy Spirit. Why do you think Paul said what he did in 1 Tim 1:15?

bottomofsandal said:

No one has said or implied Adam and Eve DID NOT have a freewill because they did !!! How did that turn out ? Your illustration supports the failure of freewill... you can surely see that !!! One command, and not even a hard one, and freewill failed miserably. Then sin entered the world, along with it the condition of man changed, and man no longer had a freewill. The heart and mind of man were inexorably changed. Man now had a bent away from God. No more freewill decisions after this episode in Eden.

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It doesn't matter HOW it turned out. What matters is that God HAD a plan B in place... the plan of Salvation. Maybe you think God made a mistake in the creation of Adam & Eve? Maybe you think God came up with the plan of Salvation AFTER Adam and Eve sinned? Maybe you don't believe in the words of Hebrews 13:8? Maybe you can supply us with just ONE verse that contradicts what Paul confirmed in Philemon 1:14? Maybe you can point out where in Genesis it says that man LOST his freewill due to the first sin they committed?

bottomofsandal said:

I love your passion bro, but you are getting into a perilous area here and making insinuations about things that are simply not true and frankly are borderline judgmental.

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It's called informed opinion, based on your responses. If I've really said anything that TRULY offends you, I apologize.

bottomofsandal said:

A godly man will take a rebuke (Psalm 141:5). Rather than be catty and pray for The Spirit to teach me, why don't you teach us ? The passage in John dealt with The Jews as descendants of Abraham and being in bondage to no one, not freewill as you claimed. The bit from Colossians 3:14 about putting on love does not support freewill either. Go back to verse 3 which states, "for you died". How does a dead man have freewill ? I am not saying you are a workman who cannot rightly divide or handle The Word of truth, but what I will humbly submit to you is that you have been taught something and you cling to it tenaciously but that when it comes time to defend the pov...you can't. If you do not agree the will is governed by the heart and mind, then you are using an erroneous designation. Please disclose the location of the will. Where is it ?

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YES.... a GODLY man will. Now who is making borderline judgments? I can ONLY teach people who are OPEN to learning. If all you look for are holes to support your own beliefs, then you are acting exactly like the Pharisees and Teachers of the Law did towards Jesus. You said in post #99, "Jesus tells the Jews if they abide in His Word and listen to Him, they will be truly free indeed."
Apparently you think this obedience doesn't involve ANY will on our part, EVEN though you yourself use the word IF. You are VERY myopic in your view. The reality of the will is right in front of your nose. You identify it in terms of what we are required to do in obedience yet you deny we use it to obey. What do you believe we use to OBEY Christ? If we don't have freewill, why are we instructed to do all we are instructed to do to remain in Jesus? Why would Paul say in Col 3:5 to "put to death", or in verses 1 & 2 that instruct us to "set" our hearts and minds. Also verses 18-22 instruct us to perform an action. ALL of these things require our obedience, which stems from our will. It means we make a choice to do them or NOT to do them...THAT is FREE WILL.
Free will is in the SAME EXACT place your refusal to acknowledge it exists. If you don't have a free will, why do you sin?

Amen Brother Stan, Amen.

stan1953 said:

If we don't have freewill, why are we instructed to do all we are instructed to do to remain in Jesus? Why would Paul say in Col 3:5 to "put to death", or in verses 1 & 2 that instruct us to "set" our hearts and minds. Also verses 18-22 instruct us to perform an action. ALL of these things require our obedience, which stems from our will. It means we make a choice to do them or NOT to do them...THAT is FREE WILL.
Free will is in the SAME EXACT place your refusal to acknowledge it exists. If you don't have a free will, why do you sin?

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Speaking for myself, it would be necessary to address this matter using the theological meaning of freewill, not the dictionary definition which concerns the ordinary, non-religious meanings of the word. If that is not agreeable, then there is no possibility of a meaningful discussion since we would be continuing to contend for totally different kinds of "freewill.'

Albion said:

What do you think the consequences of sin are, then? Unclouded judgment, the ability to please God by our own resources, what?

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Death...Romans 6:23

Albion said:

Speaking for myself, it would be necessary to address this matter using the theological meaning of freewill, not the dictionary definition which concerns the ordinary, non-religious meanings of the word. If that is not agreeable, then there is no possibility of a meaningful discussion since we would be continuing to contend for totally different kinds of "freewill.'

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Funny, I didn't realize the English or Greek that is used for Scripture means anything different than modern or even ancient dictionaries.
This is NOT a debate about metaphysics in the worldly sense. This is a debate about what or who controls our decision making.

Let me see if I can make this simple, boiled down to basics.......

IF, GOD controls every action and every decision of every Christian, and by predestination, every potential Christian, then GOD preloaded the spiritual war that is being fought over our souls, making the war ludicrous and unnecessary.

Jesus died on the cross and His blood only covers those individuals that GOD predetermined that it would cover. Sounds like Jehovah Witness' 144,000. Or just the Mormons in good standing.

Since Jesus' blood only covers those already bound for eternity in Heaven, the elect, there was really no need to shed that blood on the cross for man's sin, unless, of course, GOD is a sadomasachistic being that enjoys making others suffer for eternity and enjoys dying a painful human death on the cross, just to be able to say that He understands our pain that we, who are not chosen ahead of time, will feel when we get to Heaven and He says He never knew us, adding to His sadistic pleasure.

To be willing to believe in predestination of the few, by GOD before time began, one must do some pretty limber gymnastics with all Scripture. Such as adding and subtracting meaning from the Greek and Hebrew words for "ALL" and "WHOMEVER" and "WHO EVER WILL"...........

I am just not into word gymnastics.

I am so thankful that my faith in GOD is sufficient to know that GOD is bigger and more powerful and more sovereign than to be only able to save a few.

Be blessed,
Lee52

Lee52 you have a interesting way of seeing the fallacy of Calvinism and Arminianism! Good for you, the TRUTH is Always Refreshing over man's feeble attempts to explain God!

Albion said:

Speaking for myself, it would be necessary to address this matter using the theological meaning of freewill, not the dictionary definition which concerns the ordinary, non-religious meanings of the word. If that is not agreeable, then there is no possibility of a meaningful discussion since we would be continuing to contend for totally different kinds of "freewill.'

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Yes, this is your second request...


Maybe the "freewill" explanation will arrive when the fallacious God-helping man-virtue of prevenient grace shows up.

stan1953 said:

YES.... a GODLY man will. Now who is making borderline judgments? I can ONLY teach people who are OPEN to learning. If all you look for are holes to support your own beliefs, then you are acting exactly like the Pharisees and Teachers of the Law did towards Jesus. You said in post #99, "Jesus tells the Jews if they abide in His Word and listen to Him, they will be truly free indeed."

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There's that verse again...


If man is ALREADY free, why then does he need to be set free ?

stan1953 said:

Maybe you can point out where in Genesis it says that man LOST his freewill due to the first sin they committed?

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Albion asked you about this, and I guess I will as well.

Was man not changed after the fall in Eden ?

Was there not immediate consequences ?




Adam and Eve hid from God. God no longer fellowshipped with them in the same manner. God pronounced curses on them. There is no Plan B, this was God's ONLY plan all along. Unless you are an Open Theist ?