Do Most Protestants Disagree with the Notion of Free Will?

ChrisManuel said:

Yeah, I was there once. I cannot believe that was God's choice for me. To spend 8 years in doubt and unbelief meanwhile the enemy was tying me up in terrible bondage. I made the choice to walk away from faith. Today is a new day however and I am so blessed. And I don't mean just a little!

freedom project

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Amen, Chris! Glad to have you back in the fold! Just continue to pray, and God will always be with you despite what a few, insignificant little men said! You are blessed, but we still need to pray for these poor souls so full of self-righteousness.

bbbbbbb said:

I once attended a hyper-conservative Presbyterian (RPCNA) church in which there was an elderly gentlemen who had spent virtually his entire life as an adherent (a person who is not a member but who attends faithfully) of the church. When he was a child someone or something had convinced him that he could not and would not be counted among God's elect so there was no hope for him other than to try his best to avoid the worst of God's eternal punishment for him. I have rarely met anyone so disconsolately sad.

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Avoid the worst of God's punishment? Man, what a stupid thing for that guy to say - I guess he subscribes to Dante's fictional levels of Hell. He should have just said, "Since you're headed to the fiery pit of hay-ell, then you don't need to darken the doors of our church. Just go down to the bar, get liquored up, and pick up a few chicks!"

At least that would be an honest suggestion from Calvinists instead of this guy's silly advice!

It's amazing but I did just that. I fell into terrible bondage since I couldn't be saved. I know God's angels saved my life more than once. What freedom came knowing that Christ died for my sins too!

freedom project

Lee52 said:

You have asked a question that has plagued the Body of Christ down through the ages. Back in the early days of the church, there was Arminius and latter Calvin. Calvin theology is of predestination of the elect, Arminius is of predestination of all of humanity with free will.

Baptists are Calvinists, Wesleyan doctrine are Arminian theology.

The only way I know for a person to resolve this conflict within the Body of Christ, is this: "In as much as it is up to you, live in peace with all men."

John 3:16 says: "For God so love the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM should not perish, but have everylasting life."

To me, that is pretty all encompassing. Not everyone will choose to believe, but those that do, are saved by grace through Christ's substitutional sacrifice in our place for our sins.

And, choosing to believe is NOT works based salvation. It is merely accepting a free gift.

And yes, I am Wesleyan doctrine of Arminian theology.

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Clarification: By the 'ages' in reference to the Church, if we are speaking of only the last 400 years or so and perhaps only Protestants, at least in reference to Arminuis.

The Beautiful Heresy said:

It is a bit too complex to get into without having to get into more complex topics.

I will just say that God gives us limited 'choice', but none of us have Free-Will.

With Free-will EVEN GOD HAS NO CLUE WHAT WILL HAPPEN NEXT.

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Nice tidy little shoe box you just placed an all-mighty GOD who is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient. Just what other human limitations do you apply to GOD?

Be blessed,
Lee52

Do Most Protestants Disagree with the Notion of Free Will?

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Not me!

Many Protestants do believe in free-will. Groups that still preserve a lot of the theology from the reformation tend not to agree with free will (Lutherans, Presbyterians, Reformed).

Pentecostals believe in free will, and they have a few 100 million adherents alone.

Lutherans believe that we enjoy free will, except that we are predestined to enjoy salvation through Jesus' sacrifice for our sins. We are free to reject this sacrifice, but we cannot choose Christ's sacrifice for our sin, because he has already chosen all of us. We cant choose to make the connection, since it has already been made.

wendit said:

Lutherans believe that we enjoy free will, except that we are predestined to enjoy salvation through Jesus' sacrifice for our sins. We are free to reject this sacrifice, but we cannot choose Christ's sacrifice for our sin, because he has already chosen all of us. We cant choose to make the connection, since it has already been made.

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Please ponder on what you just said in your post.

How did you become a Christian? Are you a Christian?

If you are free to reject this sacrifice, then conversely you are free to accept this sacrifice. Acceptance, like rejection, is a choice.

Be blessed,
Lee52

wendit said:

Lutherans believe that we enjoy free will, except that we are predestined to enjoy salvation through Jesus' sacrifice for our sins. We are free to reject this sacrifice, but we cannot choose Christ's sacrifice for our sin, because he has already chosen all of us. We cant choose to make the connection, since it has already been made.

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Lee52 said:

Please ponder on what you just said in your post.

How did you become a Christian? Are you a Christian?

If you are free to reject this sacrifice, then conversely you are free to accept this sacrifice. Acceptance, like rejection, is a choice.

Be blessed,
Lee52

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The Small Catechism regarding the third article of the Apostles Creed explains it quite well:

The Third Article.​

Of Sanctification.​

I believe in the Holy Ghost; one holy Christian Church, the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen.​

What does this mean?--Answer.
I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life. This is most certainly true.

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MarkRohfrietsch said:

The Small Catechism regarding the third article of the Apostles Creed explains it quite well:

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ChrisManuel said:

I had been a christian 2 weeks when a calvinist comes along and talks me out of my salvation. You can't just ask Jesus to come into your heart, because you might not be the elect. 8 years of pure misery later at the very bottom of a barrel. God began to speak to me and drew me out of all the lies that calvinist had planted. You couldn't convince me that calvinism is right for all the money in the world. I am trying to keep this short but if anybody is seriously considering accepting calvinism, I would give you the strongest warning. It's a lie!!!!!!!

freedom project

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You're basing all this off of ONE Calvinist?

Basic problem with the theology of the elect few:

If I am elect, no matter what I do, I go to heaven for eternity.

If I am one of the non-elect, no matter how much I believe in Jesus' sacrifice for my salvation, I am eternally damned to Hell and torment.

My what a mighty god you few elect serve?

With that, I am out of this discussion as being non-edifying to the Body of Christ.

Be blessed,
Lee52

Lee52 said:

Basic problem with the theology of the elect few:

If I am elect, no matter what I do, I go to heaven for eternity.

If I am one of the non-elect, no matter how much I believe in Jesus' sacrifice for my salvation, I am eternally damned to Hell and torment.

My what a mighty god you few elect serve?

With that, I am out of this discussion as being non-edifying to the Body of Christ.

Be blessed,
Lee52

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Lee52, you are not getting it. No wonder you are not being edified...

If you are elected by God, you are still a sinner, prone to wander, you are going to sin and sometimes sin really, REALLY bad b/c YOU ARE NOT A ROBOT(as most non-Calvinists like to speculate). But God's Spirit is stronger. The shepherd always brings the sheep back to the fold. The sheep wondered away and the shepherd brought the sheep back. The farmer pruned the vine. The vine did not prune itself. The woman with the coin, found the coin, the coin did not find her. Once again, just b/c someone has the assurance of their salvation and believes they are part of the elect, does not mean they are not going to sin. (AND don't forget, there are plenty of people that SAY they are Christian, even in the Calvinists circle, and are not, you know, like the wolves in sheep's clothing)

I think the problem with Calvinists is people think they are arrogant, but a true Calvinist would NEVER tell someone they are not saved or part of the elect or "going to hell"! THAT would be arrogant! And unfortunately, there are confused people who think that is okay. However, if a Jehovahs Witness or a Mormon or Free Mason came up to a Calvinist (or even an Arminian) that Calvinist (or Arminian)COULD tell them they are on the wrong track. They COULD plant the gospel, but it would be God's decision whether He had planned (b.f the foundation of the world) to work in that JW, Mormon, FM, etc...you know, like Paul says, he planted, Apollos watered, but GOD made it grow (1 Corinthians 3:5-9).

Also, if you are "non-elect" as you say, then you will NOT believe in Jesus' sacrifice for your sin. How can a spiritually dead person believe in something if they are dead? If the Holy Spirit is not working in your heart, your ways/thoughts will be hostile to God (Romans 8:1-11). The natural person does not except the things of God...The spiritual person has the mind of Christ.

You are not saved by how good you are. There are plenty of Hollywood stars that are giving millions of dollars to charity and going to 3rd world countries and blah, blah, blah, but if God is not working in their heart, if they do not believe in Christ's sacrifice for their sins at the time of their death, then...YOU fill in the blank...BUT, obviously, that is ultimately up to God's sovereign deicision.

Lee52, my God is mighty! I love my Savior, Jesus Christ and cannot wait to see His face when He calls me to be with Him. I can be assured of this b/c He tells me I can. Can I be assured about my children? No. Can I be assured about my fellow church members? No. I CAN be assured about ME. Thank You and may God richly bless you as you study His word.

I am a Wesleyan doctrine Christian. I believe that originally, GOD intended to have fellowship with all of His creation-humans. Adam and Eve, with the active assistance of Satan, blew that relationship. Enter sin upon humans from the author of sin, Satan.

GOD, in His wisdom needed a sacrifice worthy of and capable of reconciling humans back into the perfect relationship He intended from the beginning of time. You see, ALL humans were predestined to have fellowship with GOD, from the beginning of time. GOD does not want forced fun. GOD does not want forced fellowship. GOD wants fellowship with all of us. He loves all of us. HE wants us to make the decision ourselves as to whether or not we have that fellowship. John chapter 3 especially, but the entire NT tells us that. The ONLY requirement is that we believe in the sacrifice Jesus made in our place, on our behalf, for all sin, for all time, for all humans.

We Wesleyans believe in a process of sanctification once we accept Jesus' sacrifice on our behalf. The Holy Spirit begins a good work in us. Over time, our focus, our motivations, our thoughts, our hearts are changed by the Holy Spirit. We can live for a day without any sin. We can live for a week without sinning. We can live for a month above sin. None of this is on our own works. It is ALL due to, and because of, the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives. We are not perfect, we are perfected by Grace, through faith in Jesus' substitutional sacrifice on our behalf due to His unconditional love for each of us.

I hope this helps you understand where I am at in my life with Christ Jesus, my LORD and Savior.

You will find me in the Wesley Parish-Methodist/Nazarene area regularly. I seldom venture out into other forum threads due to the divisiveness in them. At times, I see them as "anti-Christ" in nature.

And, BTW, I am very edified by the Holy Spirit and positive discussions with brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus. It is contentious discussions such as this and other divisive conversations which are non-edifying.

Be blessed,
Lee52

I think it's important to note that the arguments of free will did not originate with Calvin or the Reformers or even Christians. Aristotle was chef critic of free will and denied it. He was a determinist. Free will is a philosophical debate that has been going on for eons and of course bleeds in to religion. Any one studying comparative religions will also find each religion has it's own slant and take on it.

Free will along with determinism/indeterminism in modern times has been dragged in to quantum mechanics and even the Everything Theory.

It's deep!

For example:

would a uncaused cause cause the universe to cease to exist?

[/quote] And, BTW, I am very edified by the Holy Spirit and positive discussions with brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus. It is contentious discussions such as this and other divisive conversations which are non-edifying.

Be blessed,
Lee52[/quote]

I would beg to differ with you on this thread being contentious and divisive. What do you expect from a Forum setting? Especially when the thread has to do with "free will"! Why post anything if you don't want to be challenged? Sometimes, people have general and sincere questions (like me). It seems to me from rereading this thread that the ones who are slandering others and being contentious are a select few Arminians. It's seems like they are angry at the group that calls themselves "Calvinists"...even if it's one Calvinist they have come in contact with that has hurt them in some way. (I could be wrong though.) Like I said, a true Calvinist would NEVER condemn anyone to hell or say they were "not of the elect". I enjoy having discussions with Arminians (my grandfather is one)and frankly, the Wesleyan faith is something I am not very familiar with. I would NEVER insult your belief in God though, as I feel you and others have done through out this thread. A thread becomes contentious when a person uses it as a vent session instead of a learning experience...kinda like what Im doing here...hahaha! Opps. Except, I am not venting out of anger, it's more just frustration, I guess. Anyway, I believe you have been edified through participating in this thread, as have I. If you would have never stepped out of your Wesleyan Forum and posted your comments, I still would not know what a Wesleyan believes. I think that's why this is a great Forum...and I think that's why you and I and everyone else is part of it, to be edified even when we are defending what we believe God is saying through His word.

Calvinism and Arminianism both fail. Arminian was simply a Calvin Lite.

Both men dead and gone and both systems built on a fallacy and unBiblical.

iLogos said:

Calvinism and Arminianism both fail. Arminian was simply a Calvin Lite.

Both men dead and gone and both systems built on a fallacy and unBiblical.

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Fallacy...most definately!

Lee52 said:

You have asked a question that has plagued the Body of Christ down through the ages. Back in the early days of the church, there was Arminius and latter Calvin. Calvin theology is of predestination of the elect, Arminius is of predestination of all of humanity with free will.

Baptists are Calvinists, Wesleyan doctrine are Arminian theology.

The only way I know for a person to resolve this conflict within the Body of Christ, is this: "In as much as it is up to you, live in peace with all men."

John 3:16 says: "For God so love the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM should not perish, but have everylasting life."

To me, that is pretty all encompassing. Not everyone will choose to believe, but those that do, are saved by grace through Christ's substitutional sacrifice in our place for our sins.

And, choosing to believe is NOT works based salvation. It is merely accepting a free gift.

And yes, I am Wesleyan doctrine of Arminian theology.

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My first question is: Were you born into that denomination?
Secondly, What do you do with scriptures like 1 sam 21:1, or 2 sam 24:1 where both God and Satan are said to have 'invoked moved, compelled' David to number the people of Israel?
When the king of Gerar took Sarah, Abraham's wife for his own, and God came to him in a dream, he protested his innocence, and God said, 'I know that you did it in the integrity of your heart; that is why I KEPT YOU FROM SINNING against me.
Is God lying?
Before Moses confronts the Pharoah, God says to him that 'he will not let the people go, because I will harden his heart -for the purpose of- bringing glory to myself. Paul reiterates this in Romans when he points out that God said, 'for this very purpose I have raised you up.'
Imagine if Pharoah freely chose not to harden his heart against Moses. The things that Paul said in Corinthians 'happened as an example to us'; that is, a spiritual analogy for future saints, would have never occurred. The same can be said of Judas and the Sanhedrin, not to mention Pilate, who fulfilled all the prophecies of God. Would God leave these things to chance for the sake of free will?
Judges 14:4, when Samson fell in love with a Philistine woman, what does it mean when it says that 'It was of the Lord, who sought an occasion against the Philistines'?
Do you realize just how many verses there are like this in the bible? You'd have to really be brainwashed to not see them, or to deny their unambiguous interpretation to not see them. I think that is just what has happened to the church. It is under the spell of the flesh and Satan in order to weaken their dependence on God, as well as their praise, and faith in Him. If God is good, and His will good, why are we afraid to let Him rule with that good will over all? Do you really think it is your own good will that chooses to be a believer, when in Romans 8 Paul says that those in the flesh are hostile to the law of God, they do not yield to it, nor CAN they!? Do you think that is just hyperbole? How can sinners choose that which is against their nature? Even the law of physics dictates that things will continue under the momentum of a force until another force deters them. This is just a reflection of a spiritual law. How we contradict scripture to suit our carnal way of seeing things. I don't mean it in a bad spirit. I just challenge you to step outside of man's teaching and look at naked scripture as I did, honestly willing for God disagree with your view of him, even if it means you have to admit you were wrong. Brotherly love. By the way, Are you born again?