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All right.
Let's not be evasive, please. Does being saved mean eternal life or not?
Then if change happened--i.e. sin--we are not just like Adam and Eve were when they were created. That answers your question about the loss of freewill.
The question s was rhetorical and I answered you.
Salvation is ONE event in our life, and our walk is something we experience POST salvation. You seem to feel salvation extends throughout one's entire life-cycle. It doesn't! It is a one time event.
It wasn't rhetorical. For us to make any progress I need to know if, when you speak of being saved, you mean inherit eternal life OR if it means something more temporary to you.
When you say this--
It appears that you could mean that it occurs only once in life but is forever, but then you go on to say it doesn't extend "throughout one's entire life-cycle." Leaving aside the obvious "what do you mean by a life-cycle?" this answer doesn't tell me if, to you, being saved means something that it irrevocable or if instead it's a one-time opportunity but the salvation can be lost later on.
It wasn't rhetorical. For us to make any progress I need to know if, when you speak of being saved, you mean inherit eternal life OR if it means something more temporary to you.
When you say this--
It appears that you could mean that it occurs only once in life but is forever, but then you go on to say it doesn't extend "throughout one's entire life-cycle." Leaving aside the obvious "what do you mean by a life-cycle?" this answer doesn't tell me if, to you, being saved means something that it irrevocable or if instead it's a one-time opportunity but the salvation can be lost later on.
The question asks about "most" Protestants. I would suggest that no one has done enough research on that particular question to answer what "most" believe. It is quite evident that there are many on both sides of this issue. So, apart from some scientifically conducted poll, no one is going to be able to answer the "most" part of the question definitively.
The research of what respective denominations believe is a bit easier. For instance, I will tell you that the various congregations in the Methodist/Wesleyan family are going to recognize the sovereignty of God, but believe God exercises his sovereignty by granting mankind genuine freewill to make choices, including the ability to reject God's offer of salvation if one so desires. As for other denominations, I'll leave that to the OP to research on his own.
In addition, here is what I find being taught at some of the larger independent congregations in the country:
The following is part of the statement of faith[/url] of Southeast Christian Church (Louisville, KY) the 5th largest protestant congregation in the country.
Willow Creek Community Church (South Barrington, IL), with Bill Hybels as pastor has the following in their statement of what they believe:
Of course, even though there are more and more people attending megachurches, the vast majority of Christians in the USA still attend congregations of 50 people or less. Many of them are of no denominational affiliation, and that is what makes answer the question about "most" so hard, because without a poll we really don't know.
Albion, we have provided Scripture to you. You have provided none to us.
It wasn't rhetorical. For us to make any progress I need to know if, when you speak of being saved, you mean inherit eternal life OR if it means something more temporary to you.
When you say this--
It appears that you could mean that it occurs only once in life but is forever, but then you go on to say it doesn't extend "throughout one's entire life-cycle." Leaving aside the obvious "what do you mean by a life-cycle?" this answer doesn't tell me if, to you, being saved means something that it irrevocable or if instead it's a one-time opportunity but the salvation can be lost later on.
Albion, you start answering my questions and I'll reciprocate, otherwise it's pretty one sided, YOURS.
LOL...I just noticed this...How can I debate someone who thinks he knows better than me as to what I mean? Too funny.
I don't like to waste time if progress is not possible. You and Stan obviously know all the verses that I can offer, and, in fact, I've posted them so many times on one thread or another that it's become tedious restating everything each time a different poster comes along who has no knowledge of those earlier debates. So if the idea is just to throw scripture at people and say "that's IT!" no real discussion is going to be possible. Similarly, when I ask for a clarification of the other person's statements and this reasonable request is refused, I know that there is no real interest in working through the issue. And when I also read dares and insults in every post, I am even more confirmed in these perceptions. So I say what is necessary to present the basic facts that any open-minded reader should know and leave it at that, knowing there is little more that is going to be possible. So there's the answer, Lee.
I don't like to waste time if progress is not possible. You and Stan obviously know all the verses that I can offer, and, in fact, I've posted them so many times on one thread or another that it's become tedious restating everything each time a different poster comes along who has no knowledge of those earlier debates. So if the idea is just to throw scripture at people and say "that's IT!" no real discussion is going to be possible. Similarly, when I ask for a clarification of the other person's statements and this reasonable request is refused, I know that there is no real interest in working through the issue. And when I also read dares and insults in every post, I am even more confirmed in these perceptions. So I say what is necessary to present the basic facts that any open-minded reader should know and leave it at that, knowing there is little more that is going to be possible. So there's the answer, Lee.
I have not dared you, nor have I insulted you in every post.
You have stated on more than one occassion that man changed after the fall of Adam and Eve. I would be interested in knowing where you get that idea from...In all of my studies, I have never had anyone, including some of my close brothers in Christ that believe in Calvin's guidance versus Wesleyan's guidance on this subject make that statement. I have never been taught by anyone that man changed from our original creation to anything different from our original creation. I really am interested in where you got that.
Lee52 said:This is and has been a discussion of free will.
Lee52 said:You have stated on more than one occassion that man changed after the fall of Adam and Eve. I would be interested in knowing where you get that idea from. My Old Testament professor in college would not let us back away from such statements in class or on term papers without Scriptural support to back them up.
Lee52 said:I realize that this is not a college OT class, but there are several people "listening" in on this conversation that are not posting. Many will take as fact statements made here without themselves being willing to research the statements.
Lee52 said:In all of my studies, I have never had anyone, including some of my close brothers in Christ that believe in Calvin's guidance versus Wesleyan's guidance on this subject make that statement. I have never been taught by anyone that man changed from our original creation to anything different from our original creation. I really am interested in where you got that.
I agree.
I'm very surprised to read that statement, Lee. You've heard of Original Sin, right? It's not exactly a secret.
My brother, have you proven freewill even exists ?
Has there been a working definition established that all parties agree on ? NO, therefore without a common denominator, and a foundation to build a discussion upon, we are all spinning our wheels.
Would your Prof let you make a charge without proper evidence or give you a pass on defending a position that you feel unnecessary to defend ? You have alleged man did not change when sin entered the world. This is a bold statment that needs to be supported. How can you posit such an illogical course of action or chain of events ? Are you ignoring Genesis 3 ? You are compelled to explain "your take" on the events that transpired.
Why insult the lurkers ? I believe most, if not all will be good Bereans and search The Scriptures. More importantly, folks lurk with a hope a gleaning something transformational or edifying, as opposed to whatever this is. To say folks cannot test or discern is insulting. Frankly, there has not been much to actually "listen" to.
Then we must assume your studies are fairly limited and restricted. I do not say this to be trite, but if you have never encountered what is being proclaimed here prior to now, then you have led a spiritually sheltered existence. Futhermore, neither Albion nor myself are Calvinists. So, you have constructed a false dichotomy. How do you contend with Romans 5:12 ?
My brother, have you proven freewill even exists ?
Has there been a working definition established that all parties agree on ? NO, therefore without a common denominator, and a foundation to build a discussion upon, we are all spinning our wheels.
Would your Prof let you make a charge without proper evidence or give you a pass on defending a position that you feel unnecessary to defend ? You have alleged man did not change when sin entered the world. This is a bold statment that needs to be supported. How can you posit such an illogical course of action or chain of events ? Are you ignoring Genesis 3 ? You are compelled to explain "your take" on the events that transpired.
Why insult the lurkers ? I believe most, if not all will be good Bereans and search The Scriptures. More importantly, folks lurk with a hope a gleaning something transformational or edifying, as opposed to whatever this is. To say folks cannot test or discern is insulting. Frankly, there has not been much to actually "listen" to.
Then we must assume your studies are fairly limited and restricted. I do not say this to be trite, but if you have never encountered what is being proclaimed here prior to now, then you have led a spiritually sheltered existence. Futhermore, neither Albion nor myself are Calvinists. So, you have constructed a false dichotomy. How do you contend with Romans 5:12 ?
Are you saying God placed the propensity for you to believe that you have a freewill, therefore that proves you have a freewill ? How do know that God put freewill within you ? If God placed these freewill fancies in your mind, then you were not really free to believe them !!! Your illustration could easily prove determinism because no freewill choice existed. There was no contrary choice, it was innately engrained in your person.I don't know whether freewill really exists of not. I just know that the way God sovereignly chose to create me, he has put such ideas in my head. And of course, since God put them there, it's not like any of your arguments to the contrary could actually get me to freely change my mind on the topic.
Yes, I have heard of original sin. I understand it and yet, have never heard that man changed.
I have heard and believe that man's relationship with GOD was damaged and changed, but a relationship is not man. GOD did not change, and neither did man.
I need to see some Scripture references to see where the Bible says that man changed.
So you ignore Romans 5:13 and following making Adam of more power than Jesus? Please read Romans 5:18 if you just want one verse. But I prefer to read Romans 5:12-21....
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
PRAISE GOD!
Unfortunately, you are still being silly. What does this even mean ? I am glad Lee is engaging with us now, wish you would join in.stan1953 said:There is nothing to contend for in Romans 5:12...it says what it says. You know the old saying, If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck and swims like a duck, it's probably a duck, with a french accent.
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