Disciple Study

SandyLou · Aug 29, 2004

Have any of you taken a Disciple course?
I just started Disciple I and am struggling - -not with the material or amount of reading and journaling but with the facilitators who use the word "wrong" a lot. Tonite I responded to a "what does this suggest to you?" type question and not only was I wrong - but the Bible was wrong.

I've heard wonderful things about this course but so far have only experience frustrated and anger.
I'm hoping some of you have completed one or more of the Disciple courses and can give me some insight.
Maybe it will all come together in week 33???

Thanks for any and all sharing!
--SandyLou

ClementofRome · Aug 29, 2004

SandyLou, I have not taught Disciple Study, but have taught a number of formal bible examinations/studies and hate to say this, but you are always at the mercy of your leader/instructor/professor. An organized and structured study is only as good as the one who leads it (this is not a pompus statement, just an observation). The most conservative study can be turned into a mess by the most liberal of leaders. The most liberal study can be a freaking mess led by the most conservative of leaders.

Can you give a more specific example of "wrong?" Having led many many studies, I can assure you that anyone who calls you or the text "wrong" is not a sensitive instructor. I may not agree with you or the text, but in this type of study, "wrong" is not a very good choice of words.

Blessings to you in your study.

SandyLou · Aug 30, 2004

Thanks for your response - it's not that type of "formal" Bible study. It's a study within the Methodist Church - - small study group with 2 facilitators who are not "teachers" just other members of the congregation who have already been thru the course.

That's why I'm hoping others here in "Wesley's Parish" have taken it and can share their own experiences.

His hands & feet,
SandyLou

wvmtnkid · Aug 30, 2004

I have taken all 4 of the Disciple studies and the Christian Believer study as well. I really liked the studies, I'll have to say. I guess my question would be, did your facilitators go to the training that is set up for those that lead the study? I noticed that made some differences in our leaders. Also, I think I would be concerned about someone who informed me the bible was wrong. How exactly was that thought presented, if you don't mind sharing?

SandyLou · Aug 30, 2004

It's only my 2nd chapter - so we're in Genesis, talking about being created in His image with a reference to verse 1:26 (Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness. . . .27So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.) The question reads - what does this mean to you? I said to me this showed God was multi-dimensional and in community (as in the triune).
My facilitator said that's wrong because in Hebrew there are no pronouns and the terms "us" and "our" did not exist. Of the 4 Bible translations that the group was using none of us had any such reference in our study bibles - - so I was answering the question based on reading the NKJV that was in front of me. He repeated that our Bible translations (KJV, NKJV, NIV, RSV) were ALL wrong if they used the "us" or "our" pronouns.
I appreciated his information - although he offered no source for it - but fail to understand why my answer of how I feel could be WRONG based on a widely accepted translation.

Last week I was also told I was WRONG on another "mean to you" question. I've always been taught (and how I facilitate classes) there aren't right or wrong personal interpretations - I mean, if that's what the verse says to YOU. . . maybe I can help you clarify by looking in another area of the Bible but I would never tell someone they were WRONG or that their Bible was wrong.

Obviously - since you've done all the Disciple courses - you've had a variety of facilitators. Were they (the faciltators, I mean) all wonderful? So am I being too sensitive here? (please be honest cause maybe I am) Or are my facilitators being insensitive? My other possible "justification" for them is that perhaps the facilitators are trying to set some sort of standard for future studies????

I love the readings and the questions! I'm getting used to the speed of the videos (gotta work on my speedwriting to take notes ) I'm just struggling even wanting to participate in discussions in the future.

Thanks!
SandyLou

wvmtnkid · Aug 30, 2004

Hi SandyLou-

Wow. That sorta flabbergasts me to say the least. I did have different facilitators for all but one (I had one twice.) My understanding of the Disciple and Christian Believer study's are there are no right or wrong answers (unless you are just way off base and are not even grasping a foundation teaching such as the Trinity or the resurrection or something along those lines.) You do the readings and apply the questions to your understanding of what you just read. Now through discusssion, you may come to a different understanding than what you had before. (That happened quite a bit with me! ) That is how we learn. But, to say that you were wrong to a question that asked what that scripture means to you? I think I would be upset as well.

Is there a way that you could talk privately with this facilitator and discuss your concerns with him?

Oh, and those videos!! Those were my least favorite part. I could have totally done without them!

Origen · Aug 30, 2004

SandyLou said:
Obviously - since you've done all the Disciple courses - you've had a variety of facilitators. Were they (the faciltators, I mean) all wonderful? So am I being too sensitive here? (please be honest cause maybe I am) Or are my facilitators being insensitive? My other possible "justification" for them is that perhaps the facilitators are trying to set some sort of standard for future studies????

I love the readings and the questions! I'm getting used to the speed of the videos (gotta work on my speedwriting to take notes ) I'm just struggling even wanting to participate in discussions in the future.

Thanks!
SandyLou

Hello SandyLou -- I'm sorry that you're struggling with your facilitators. I've taken several Disciple classes as a student, and I've taken the official training course to become a certified Disciple facilitator, and taught several classes. The experience you describe is not consistent with what I was taught.

You should ask your facilitators if they are familiar with these guidelines:

Disciple Principles for Bible Study said:
Principles for Bible Study

1. The Word of God is Jesus Christ, and the words of the Bible tell us about that Word. Therefore, when we study the words of the Bible we always look behind, in, and through those words for God's Word--Jesus Christ.

2. No Christian has a monopoly on understanding either God's Word or the words of the Scripture. This includes biblical scholars and the most unlearned Christian. All of us must listen to one another as we seek to understand the richness of God's gifts.

3. We must assume everyone has Christian integrity and not accuse one another of being unchristian, no matter how unusual are the opinions.

4. We must further assume that we will arrive at different understandings of portions of Scripture and that that will not disturb God as much as it will some of us.

5. Few of us will know Hebrew or Greek, and we therefore need to use a variety of English versions to try to understand the text.

6. While we accept our differences, we do not feel that those differences are unimportant, or that they should be ignored or treated as if they did not matter.

7. Different biblical understandings can remain among us, but we can still be warm Christian friends, In fact, as we grow to better understand our differences, we can grow in our appreciation of one another.

These are the guidelines reproduced at the beginning of the leader's manual. We copy and distribute these to all Disciple participants, and we go over them several times during the first couple of weeks.

I would definitely ask your facilitator what is his source of information for some of the claims he is making. I'd also encourage you to continue to participate in discussions as you feel able; sometimes when someone challenges my interpretation, I change my mind, and sometimes I become more convinced of my interpretation.

The key to making Disciple the gold standard of bible study I've found, for me personally, is that last point mentioned in the guidelines, "Different biblical understandings can remain among us, but we can still be warm Christian friends, In fact, as we grow to better understand our differences, we can grow in our appreciation of one another." It's been my experience that the relationships that develop during Disciple Bible Study are the real jewel.

If the facilitator continues to shut you and others down during discussions by declaring that you are wrong on questions of interpretation that are open to discussion, I would bring the issue to the group.

And check to see if these facilitators have received Disciple training.

SandyLou · Aug 30, 2004

Wow - thank you for the principles list! Especially #5 as it directly applies with the facilitator saying the Bible was wrong!

I have two facilitators and after the first week I did go speak to that person privately. The other person led this past week - - I know he has co-facilitated Jesus & the Gospels so I'm ASSUMING he's been thru the training. I know everyone's style is different - as a small group facilitator myself I have always been told to never use the word "wrong" - to instead say things like "how interesting, could you elaborate" or "have you thought about .. ?" or other more subtle ways of either directing the person or getting them to rephrase so clear up a possible misunderstanding on my part.

I think my biggest frustration was him telling me that all 4 translations of the Bible were wrong and therefore our conclusions were wrong. I was so frustrated that I couldn't talk to him last nite after class - - but you & WVmtnkid are absolutely right - I do need to privately discuss it with him. Perhaps even ask to meet with both of the facilitators at once to clarify in my own mind where they are coming from.

Thank you both soooooo very much for your input and guidance. It's relieved my mind and helped me find some peace. What a blessing you both are!

His hands & feet,
SandyLou

wvmtnkid · Sep 1, 2004

Sandy Lou-

Have you taken Jesus and the Gospels yet? I think that is going to be offered next year at my church. Our Christian Education Director is going for training this October for it. I have heard both good and not so good things about it. If you have taken it, what is your opinion?

SandyLou · Sep 1, 2004

Funny that you asked that . . . . .that was what I wanted to take! Our Education Pastor has said Disciple 1 is a pre-req for Christian Beliver and for Jesus & the Gospels. I've heard wonderful things about it!
(by the way, the facilitating team leading my Disciple1 group - last year they led a group in Jesus & the Gospels!*giggle*).
I go to a huge church (roughly 5,000 members) so I just need to get thru this Disciple 1. People told me that Disciple 1 would be rough until we got to the New Testament - I just thought they meant that the reading assignments would be difficult! Silly me!
We're taking a Labor Day break from class this week so hopefully I can catch one or both of my facilitators in church Sunday & arrange to have a talk with them both.
Take Jesus & The Gospels! Then you can (once again!) be a mentor to me!!

wvmtnkid · Sep 1, 2004

Ah, Disciple 1. I remember it well. It is a big undertaking. But it is worth it in the end. However, I will tell you that I did not take a Disciple class for another 5 years after taking Disciple 1. And to be honest, I liked Christian Believer the best out of all of them. I didn't feel that way when I started it, but it was really good when we got into it. My feeling is that you should take CB really even before the Disciples. But, that's just me.

Hey, maybe next year we will both get to take Jesus and the Gospels and we can mentor each other!

wvmtnkid · Sep 1, 2004

Oh, and I also wanted to add, and I think Origen hit on it too, that one of the keys to a successful Disciple experience is the group you are in. You really have to develop a trust with that group. Sometimes it takes awhile to do that. But your group makes a big difference. Many of my relationships in the church have been formed in Disciple groups.

SandyLou · Sep 1, 2004

wvmtnkid said:
Oh, and I also wanted to add, and I think Origen hit on it too, that one of the keys to a successful Disciple experience is the group you are in. You really have to develop a trust with that group. Sometimes it takes awhile to do that. But your group makes a big difference. Many of my relationships in the church have been formed in Disciple groups.

I love my Disciple group! 6 women, 2 men + the 2 male facilitators. One other girl in the group is single - but she's seriously involved so it's like she's married So really I'm the only SINGLE single person in the group. But I really like each of them! Most have teens and I work with / mentor teens so we seem to have some home ground.

I think part of the problem is the difference in walks / levels. I came back to organized religion (was still in Christian faith, yet not in church) about 8 yrs ago and attacked the Bible and religion like the long-lost friend it was. The others read the Bible "in 4th or 5th grade" and have been helping their kids at Sunday School ever since - - not really spending any quality study time of their own. Soooo - could the leader team be treating this group differently because there's so few established Bible students??? (I dunno. That may be a question I ask the guys tho)

What size church is yours?

wvmtnkid · Sep 2, 2004

I belong to a smaller church than you. We have probably 700 on roll, more like 250-300 on an average Sunday (a problem in itself). I was thinking, maybe part of the problem is that perhaps because some of the leaders have taken Disciple before, the feel somehow "smarter"? I didn't know exactly how to say that politely. Whatever the reason, I think that you shouldn't feel bad about sharing your thoughts in the discussion because you are entitled to your thoughts. Maybe once they are made aware of how they are coming across, that will help with the problem.

SandyLou · Sep 2, 2004

wvmtnkid said:
I was thinking, maybe part of the problem is that perhaps because some of the leaders have taken Disciple before, the feel somehow "smarter"? I didn't know exactly how to say that politely.

I had the same thought altho I was to quell it Especially when everyone introduced themselves and most said the last time they read their bibles was in grade school. I really think that may be part of it - the better than you - but I would HOPE I'm wrong. Ya know - I WANT to think that their studies have made them MORE open to reaching out to lift up others. . . . . I think that's why I sooooo appreciated you & Origen encouraging me to talk to these guys privately.

Of course with Rd 2 of the Attack of the Killer Hurricane coming this weekend, I'm just praying we're all around TO talk!

wvmtnkid · Sep 2, 2004

SandyLou said:
Of course with Rd 2 of the Attack of the Killer Hurricane coming this weekend, I'm just praying we're all around TO talk!

's for you SandyLou! Are you being evacuated where you live?

SandyLou · Sep 2, 2004

not being evacuated at this point. I'm in central FL - Polk County. Hurricane Charley was just thru here - he had a wild party and left without paying the damages of over $770 Million in our county alone. Nice guy.
I guess he had so much fun and left so many people homeless that he thought it would be cool to invite his cousin Hurricane Frances to come by and pick up anything that was still standing but maybe weakened.

The mobile homes in my area were evacuated last time but I was able to stay home. A shelter/high school is about 4 blocks from my house tho in case I decide to book at the last moment this time. Last time I was without power for 15.5 hours. I should have probably left then - but the folks across the street had power so I kept expecting mine to come back on! (blonde logic *giggle*)

Thank you for the prayers. I think South Florida needs them more this time. Joining with you in praying for safety and wisdom.

WVmtnKid

kitkat60 · Sep 14, 2004

I took Disciple 1 about 15 years ago (and would actually like to retake it)....and I don't remember my facilitators using the "w" word that much. In our class, we had one person using NIV (that was me), a smattering using RSV or NRSV, and a few using the NJB. I loved it and thought it was absolutely fabulous....actually on my list of things to do was to look into the schedule for it around here today.

SandyLou · Sep 15, 2004

Just a quick update. . . . I am sooooo thankful for the nudgings from Origen & WVmtnKid ( to each of them) to talk with my facilitators. I've only been able to speak with one of them privately and feel soooo much better.

In class this week, someone mentioned the sin that comes up frequently in their life was gossip and how hard it sometimes is to turn away from it. Well, it wasn't much later that the facilitator I have not yet spoken with made a "slam" remark about my previous denomination. I asked if slandering an entire group/ denomination, thinking it's "funny", wasn't similar to the gossip issue. After all, comedians get paid to insult folks - but did that make it right for us in a group? YIKES! I didn't say it in a mean voice, just curious because I do hear alot of that type of "humor" in my contact with people. I noticed that lots of people were agreeing with me - I mean, it hadn't really occured to me the similarities - but I also noted that person turning red. I think he was convicted - as I was with my own behavior at times.

Anyway. . . . while the course is not exactly what I had expected, I am getting a lot out of the readings.

And YES KitKat60, from what everyone else has told me - - take the other courses!

His hands & feet,
SandyLou

Adammi · Sep 15, 2004

SandyLou said:
It's only my 2nd chapter - so we're in Genesis, talking about being created in His image with a reference to verse 1:26 (Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness. . . .27So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.) The question reads - what does this mean to you? I said to me this showed God was multi-dimensional and in community (as in the triune).
My facilitator said that's wrong because in Hebrew there are no pronouns and the terms "us" and "our" did not exist. Of the 4 Bible translations that the group was using none of us had any such reference in our study bibles - - so I was answering the question based on reading the NKJV that was in front of me. He repeated that our Bible translations (KJV, NKJV, NIV, RSV) were ALL wrong if they used the "us" or "our" pronouns.
I appreciated his information - although he offered no source for it - but fail to understand why my answer of how I feel could be WRONG based on a widely accepted translation.

Last week I was also told I was WRONG on another "mean to you" question. I've always been taught (and how I facilitate classes) there aren't right or wrong personal interpretations - I mean, if that's what the verse says to YOU. . . maybe I can help you clarify by looking in another area of the Bible but I would never tell someone they were WRONG or that their Bible was wrong.

Obviously - since you've done all the Disciple courses - you've had a variety of facilitators. Were they (the faciltators, I mean) all wonderful? So am I being too sensitive here? (please be honest cause maybe I am) Or are my facilitators being insensitive? My other possible "justification" for them is that perhaps the facilitators are trying to set some sort of standard for future studies????

I love the readings and the questions! I'm getting used to the speed of the videos (gotta work on my speedwriting to take notes ) I'm just struggling even wanting to participate in discussions in the future.

Thanks!
SandyLou

The Hebrew word used there to express Pluralism is Elohim. "in the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth". Elohim means Mighty ONES (plural). Had God Almighty inspired Moses to write this singularly He woud have said" In the beginning Elohah created the heavens and the earth." Elohah means Mighty ONE.

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