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Robban

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Hi folks,
Been doing some digging in the "Christian garden", dont know where I got that expression from, well with about 2 billion plants, why not?
While digging Ive hit a couple stones, btw Careful not to damage the plants. First sten, Jesus referred to himself as "the son of man" Many refer to him as the "son of God".NT Luke 3:38 ends in "son to Adam, son to God.Well is Jesus the son or is Adam the son.
Second sten, If it is, as is beleived by Christians that because of Adams sin everyone is doomed to burn for all eternity, unless they accept a solution offered by another son, or through another son. It may have made more sense, if it said Adam came back and took his punishment,
Third stone, If so, "why so many years later".
I just want to get my digging done so that I can move on. Regards
Robban.
 

ebia

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Depends what sense one is using the phrase. Phrases like "Son of God" have more that one meaning. Luke uses it, not unreasonably, to make a theological point about Jesus's relationship to Adam. The Old Testament generally uses it to refer to Israel, and hence to Israel's representative King (Kingship in Old Testament thinking is primarily a representative function - what is true of the People is true of the King, and vice-versa). So when Jesus implied he was Son of God that would not have been heard as a claim of divinity but as a claim to be the Annointed Davidic King - the Messiah.

Only after Jesus Ascension do Christians - probably starting with Paul - start to realise that, in the light of his actions and claims vindicated by his Resurrection, Jesus is 'Son of God' in ways far deeper than that.

Second sten, If it is, as is beleived by Christians that because of Adams sin everyone is doomed to burn for all eternity, unless they accept a solution offered by another son, or through another son.
That's somewhat of a card-board cuttout of how the thinking works.

Third stone, If so, "why so many years later".
A quick run down on the whole biblical metanarrative, only within which does Jesus make any sense:
Genesis 1-2: two complementary descriptions of God's intention for creation
Genesis 3: a narrative explanation of why creation doesn't look like 1&2 say it should
Genesis 4-5: an expansion on the consequences of that
Genesis 6-9 (the story of Noah): a narrative explanation of why God cannot get rid of evil by force - it runs down the middle of each one of us, including the 'righteous' Noah.
Genesis 10-11: linking material
Genesis 12: The call of Abraham. This is the start of God's plan to put the world to rights, by working in and through a representative people (who are fallen themselves) to bring the whole of creation back to Him.
Jesus comes as the climax of, and only as the climax of, that long story of Israel - a story continued in the church. When people are broken, you can't fix them up by waving a magic-want, you fix them up by the long, hard, slog of working alongside them. And that will be, as the OT makes abundantly clear, a long and messy process with as many set-backs as steps forward.

What Jesus was and did is not something that could have happened at any time and place and God arbitrarily picked Jerusalem in 30AD. It is something that all of Israel's history had been building towards, and all subsequent history builds from.
 
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Maranatha27

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Hi Robban,

The term Son of Man is taken from the book of Daniel. Christ loved using this expression, and used it when referring to his humanity.

Daniel 7: [13] I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
[14] And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

You might have been digging in the garden, but you barely got any dirt on your spade. The Bible teaches the Christ would come from eternity (Micah 5:2), be born of a woman and have no earthly father (Isa 7:14) . God would be His Father, and thats just what the Bible states, the Holy Spirit conceived in Mary's womb (Luke 1: 34,35). Christ was truly both the The Son of Man and The Son of God, There is no contradiction.

You state correctly that the Bible teaches Adams disobedience of God, brought sin to the human race and sin brought death. The results of sin were seen immediately in the next generation when Abel was slain by his brother Cain. Even in those early chapters of humanity we see Christ. satan was told by God That Eves seed would destroy him in Genesis 3:15. This seed is Christ. The shedding of blood is seen for the "covering" of sin and as the OT progresses we see Jehovah's suffering servant more clearly. The animal blood covered sin, the High Priest would enter the Holy of Holies once a year to make atonement or to cover Israels sin for one year. When John saw Jesus coming coming John 1: The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Why So long? I have no clue
 
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OldChurchGuy

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As was pointed out earlier, "Son of Man" first appears in the book of Daniel but I am not aware of any precise explanation as to it's exact meaning. It is my understanding Jesus the Christ was God incarnate. Presuming that understanding is accurate, then it would seem Adam is the son of God.

The idea of "original sin" began as a response to Gnosticism in the early church according to this link in Wikipedia: Original sin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The idea is not explicitly spelled out in the Bible and is not an idea in Judaism but appears to be unique to Christianity. To me, it has never made sense but it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.

As to why the length of time, I also have no clue.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
 
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Robban

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Hi ebia,Maranatha,OldChurchGuy,
Thank you for responding, I have put my NT,s in a box in the cellar about two years ago. Have been using them since 87 when I went to the first meeting with my wife. The real reason why I came to this forum was because a thought came to me. If anyone is going to throw away a coat for example they usually feel in the pockets to see if there is anything of value before throwing it away. Since 87 and attending these meetings plus a lot work in the place. Well there is a lot to be said but I wanted to keep it short ,that why I picked three stones which are in someway personal to me. There are many things one can bring up. In a way it feels for me as if its been a lot of work for Laban. And as Jacob went back to get something so also I. This is just a short thanks for your time, will be back though later today.
In the meantime something for ebia, The two geneologies of Jesus are inconsistent.
In Luke it says "son to Natan, son to David. In Mathew it says David to Salomo.
In Luke it is assuming that Josef is the father of Jesus but that dosnt add up, if Jesus
had no biological father.
Robban.
 
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ebia

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And???

The geneaologies (in Luke and Matthew, and anywhere else in the bible or the rest of the ancient world for that matter) are about theology and connections, not about genetics.
 
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JCFantasy23

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Robban

I was just reading something about this earlier tonight when studying Barnes commentary on the book of Matthew. It helps with some of the geneology questions. To answer your question, our Saviour is BOTH the son of man and the son of God.

Here is the section (a little long, but it should help you with your questions)

 
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Robban

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ebia,Maranatha 27,OldChurchGuy,JCFantasy23,
i thank you for your honest replies.
First I dont have a problem conjuring up a picture of Jesus who seems to have been a Torah observant Jew who maybe according to some "overstepped the mark" so to speak. John says "the word became flesh" no problem with that either, a matter of reading and doing. Actions not just words.
Dont want to get into deep discussions, I dont think that would be beneficial.
What I gave up on was everything that has been built up around Jesus.
Original sin, is a new concept introduced by Paul, Rom 5:12,fully developed by Augastine of Hippo. But it dosnt fit in with what God says to Cain in Gen 4:6-7.
So God says of sin "that you may rule over it". On forgiveness, God held the door open for Cain And doing so to this very day, the door is true repentance, the
sacrifice is a broken heart. Ps 32. What really did it for me was Esekiel 18, I was ill at the time laying and reading, when I read Esekiel 18 it blew my socks off. i was on my feet shortly after,well again. This is Gods open door to both Jews and non-Jews.
Nineve is a good example. It is of great importance that "the Messiah" must be a direct descendent of King David and King Solomon. The total of criteria for "the Messiah" is found in Esekiel 37:24-28.
Well its all about a personal relationship with God, because at the end of the day each and every one of will have to answer for themselves.
I have already made my mind up, I telephoned my brother some months back, it came like out of the blue "It is difficult to live with one foot in yersterday and other in today"
So I,ll just get my coat. all the best Folks
will look in now and then though.
Regards
Robban.
 
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Van

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Hi Robban, lets look at the stones you have dug up in the garden. First, since Adam was thrown out of the garden of Eden, you must be digging in the garden of satan who is the ruler of this world.

Jesus referred to Himself as the Son of God and the Son of Man. The assertion He is the Son of God is an assertion that He is of the same essence as God, just as when I say I am the son of humans, I am claiming to be human. At least one of the times the Jews heard Him make that claim, they picked up stones to throw at Him because He was claiming to be God.

Now as attractive as it might seem to say when Jesus said He was the Son of Man, He was claiming to be human, born in the usual way, that would be completely in error. The Son of Man is code for claiming to be the Messiah, the Christ, the Anointed One of God, our deliverer, our savior, our redeemer. Daniel refers to the Messiah as "something like the son of man."

Second stone, it is believed by many Christians that by Adam's sin, the many (all of mankind) were made sinners. And also all sinners who do not obtain mercy through faith in Christ will be tossed into the Lake of Fire and destroyed.

Footnote, Jesus is the Son of God meaning He is God. Adam was a "son of God" meaning Adam was made by God as part of His creation. So Adam had no human father and mother, but was the first "man" whereas Jesus had no earthly father because God in the person of the Word became flesh supernaturally, born of a virgin.

Continuing with the second stone, because we were made sinners because of Adam's sin, then it follows that we are being punished for Adam's sin, so why is God punishing us rather than His son Adam? We (mankind) are not being punished for Adam's sin. Consider this scenario, a person is getting ready to put his full faith and devotion in Christ, but has not yet done it, and so has not yet received mercy. In this condition, someone murders him. And so he goes to Hades. Now is he being punished for the sin of his murder? Nope. He is being punished for the sins he committed prior to his death. So we (mankind) are sinners as a consequence of Adam's sin - he spiritually murdered us - but we are not being punished for that sin, but for our own.

Third stone, why did God wait so many years (between the life of Adam and the life of Christ) to provide the possibility of avoiding Hades? Answer: He did not! Recall that Old testament Saints obtained the promises of God and entered Paradise shortly after Christ died on the cross. Hebrews 11:39-40. So between the time of Adam and Jesus, humans who obtained approval by faith were taken to a place of comfort (Abraham's bosom) and held there (like in a temporary holding cell with all the comforts of home) until Christ took the captives to Paradise.

If you find any more stones, as you move on, tending the garden, search the Word of Him who removes hearts of stone.
 
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JCFantasy23

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So I,ll just get my coat. all the best Folks
will look in now and then though.
Regards
Robban.


And all the best to you. Hoping you return to the forums soon May God bless your journeys.
 
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