Difficulty in finding a church I can truly belong to.

Albion · Jan 23, 2016

MechPebbles said:
Anyway, I believe the Bible testifies strongly to the importance of corporate worship in a believer's life. We should not allow our modern worldview which exalts individuality over community to dilute our understanding of how central corporate worship should be.

I think we have to be careful not to go to either extreme with this point. While corporate worship is indicated by Scripture and talked about plenty, and we know from history itself of its importance from the earliest days of Christian history forward...most of what Jesus taught about behavior, morals, and so on concerned the individual, i.e. how you or I respond to others, what's in our own hearts and minds, etc.

twin1954 · Jan 23, 2016

MechPebbles said:
I had always thought of the Presbyterian churches in my area as being liberal but thanks to your prodding, I have done some research and found two Presbyterian churches linked to the PCA. Unfortunately, at least from their website, their music looks identical to that of my Baptist churches. Still, it's nice to have alternatives. Thanks.

You do realize that Presbyterian Covenant theology and Baptist Covenant theology are greatly different don't you? The Presbyterians use "necessary consequence" to arrive and infant baptism and see the rite of baptism as a continuation of circumcision. Baptists do not. It is very difficult to be a Baptist Covenant believer in a Presbyterian church. I tried it and it didn't work. If you don't know the difference between them then I would council you to read The Distinctive of Baptist Covenant Theology by Pascal Denault. I can loan it to you through my Kindle account if you would like. Let me know.

Now while it is true that sheep are not meant to be alone but a part of a sheepfold staring a Bible study is a step in the right direction to establishing a work in your area. I am not talking about something where everybody gives their opinion on the Scriptures but one where someone who is qualified and able to teach actually expounds the Scriptures. Perhaps that could be you or someone else. I would be willing to help you all that I can, though not looking to become anyone's pastor.

twin1954 · Jan 23, 2016

Albion said:
I think we have to be careful not to go to either extreme with this point. While corporate worship is indicated by Scripture and talked about plenty, and we know from history itself of its importance from the earliest days of Christian history forward...most of what Jesus taught about behavior, morals, and so on concerned the individual, i.e. how you or I respond to others, what's in our own hearts and minds, etc.

I would disagree. Jesus taught the Gospel and always taught it in the context of how the Jews had perverted the truth. He spoke to groups not individuals. Also Paul and the other apostles, except for Tim., Titus and 2nd and 3rd John, wrote to whole churches and what they taught about behavior was also in the context of the Gospel of Christ. What they taught wasn't morals but how the Gospel applies to every situation.

Albion · Jan 23, 2016

twin1954 said:
You do realize that Presbyterian Covenant theology and Baptist Covenant theology are greatly different don't you? The Presbyterians use "necessary consequence" to arrive and infant baptism and see the rite of baptism as a continuation of circumcision. Baptists do not. It is very difficult to be a Baptist Covenant believer in a Presbyterian church.

I'm sure he does realize this; but it became evident, early in the thread, that he doesn't have very many choices to select from. That's why the rest of us began digging deep to see if there weren't something better than just giving up.

Albion · Jan 23, 2016

twin1954 said:
I would disagree. Jesus taught the Gospel and always taught it in the context of how the Jews had perverted the truth. He spoke to groups not individuals.

Ah, but he spoke to the individual even when there was a large gathering. What's more, the Gospels give us numerous examples of him guiding individuals as individuals, face to face, teaching them not to be hypocrites or else how to behave, as individuals in situations we all face at times. As I said, there is a case to be made each way, and it's a mistake to think that the teachings of Jesus are all one way only.

Look Up · Jan 23, 2016

MechPebbles said:
I had always thought of the Presbyterian churches in my area as being liberal but thanks to your prodding, I have done some research and found two Presbyterian churches linked to the PCA. Unfortunately, at least from their website, their music looks identical to that of my Baptist churches. Still, it's nice to have alternatives. Thanks.

There are more mainline Presbyterians in the the US (esp. PCUSA) than evangelical ones--PCA and OP are evangelical. If you don't like the drums and electric guitar stuff (I don't prefer it either) or theologically ambiguous and wrongheaded words in most modern worship song, note that there are theologically more astute and sound modern song writers within the English speaking church (e.g., Keith and Kristyn Getty among others). If you look into a PCA church that uses drums, etc., you may be advised not to judge the lyrical book immediately by its instrumental cover, so to speak. They may (as I would expect) prefer modern songs (where used) which are in line with the Westminster Standards--though also as I had written, there is variation within the PCA. OP would probably be more conservative musically.

twin1954 · Jan 23, 2016

Albion said:
I'm sure he does realize this; but it became evident, early in the thread, that he doesn't have very many choices to select from. That's why the rest of us began digging deep to see if there weren't something better than just giving up.

I certainly am not encouraging him to give up. I am sure I don't need to tell him to seek the Lord's guidance and direction. What I would tell him is to not rush into something that is obviously, according to his lists in the OP, not what he is seeking and may be more trouble than he realizes. As I said I tried to attend a PCA while a Baptist and it didn't work. They may be correct in their soteriology but the rest of their theology rubs the wrong way. From their system of church government to their view of baptism and the Lord's supper as sacraments rather than ordinances Baptists simply don't fit. He would fit better in one of the Reformed Baptist churches he spoke of though they tend to be even more legalistic than even the Presbyterians.

I would encourage him to seek the Lord and wait on Him. We walk by faith not by sight.

twin1954 · Jan 23, 2016

Albion said:
Ah, but he spoke to the individual even when there was a large gathering. What's more, the Gospels give us numerous examples of him guiding individuals as individuals, face to face, teaching them not to be hypocrites or else how to behave, as individuals in situations we all face at times. As I said, there is a case to be made each way, and it's a mistake to think that the teachings of Jesus are all one way only.

I will not debate you over this as it isn't the topic of the OP.

Albion · Jan 23, 2016

twin1954 said:
I certainly am not encouraging him to give up. I am sure I don't need to tell him to seek the Lord's guidance and direction. What I would tell him is to not rush into something that is obviously, according to his lists in the OP, not what he is seeking and may be more trouble than he realizes.

My feeling is that he's not going to rush into anything, but the problem remains...he doesn't have much to choose from where he lives. That's why some suggestions have been made (by me and others) that wouldn't seem ideal, but they're only ideas thrown out there for his consideration. There's no need to balloon this into more than it is.

Albion · Jan 23, 2016

twin1954 said:
I will not debate you over this as it isn't the topic of the OP.

Thank you!

MechPebbles · Jan 24, 2016

twin1954 said:
You do realize that Presbyterian Covenant theology and Baptist Covenant theology are greatly different don't you? The Presbyterians use "necessary consequence" to arrive and infant baptism and see the rite of baptism as a continuation of circumcision. Baptists do not. It is very difficult to be a Baptist Covenant believer in a Presbyterian church. I tried it and it didn't work. If you don't know the difference between them then I would council you to read The Distinctive of Baptist Covenant Theology by Pascal Denault. I can loan it to you through my Kindle account if you would like. Let me know.

I was in a small fundamentalist Presbyterian church for about 7 years and even though I have never found convincing the argument from circumcision used to support paedobaptism, my real objections regarding that church are the four listed under what I have called Group B churches. I have always had the highest regard for conservative Presbyterians and, as a Calvinistic Baptist, I think of them as Big Brother.

Thanks for the offer but doesn't loaning a Kindle book involve sharing your password? Too risky. Besides, reading the back and forth arguments between paedobaptism and credobaptism bores me terribly. I tried reading the articles on this subject in a recent issue of Themelios but I had to stop from sheer lack of interest. It seems to me that both sides are guilty of stretching Scripture to make it say something it never really intended. Well, perhaps the Presbyterians are slightly more guilty of it than the Baptists, but I'm sure I'm just being biased.

MechPebbles · Jan 24, 2016

Albion said:
I'm not any kind of authority on this particular subject, and the PCA has grown so much in recent years that it probably does have a range of worship styles now, but what you describe doesn't sound like the usual PCA type of worship, so maybe it would be worth a phone call or visit before closing out the investigation.

Look Up said:
There are more mainline Presbyterians in the the US (esp. PCUSA) than evangelical ones--PCA and OP are evangelical. If you don't like the drums and electric guitar stuff (I don't prefer it either) or theologically ambiguous and wrongheaded words in most modern worship song, note that there are theologically more astute and sound modern song writers within the English speaking church (e.g., Keith and Kristyn Getty among others). If you look into a PCA church that uses drums, etc., you may be advised not to judge the lyrical book immediately by its instrumental cover, so to speak. They may (as I would expect) prefer modern songs (where used) which are in line with the Westminster Standards--though also as I had written, there is variation within the PCA. OP would probably be more conservative musically.

I try to keep up with what is happening in the Presbyterian world (at least in the US) and am relatively well informed on the theological positions of and developments in the PCUSA, PCA and OPC denominations. I really love to read stuff written by conservative Presbyterian scholars and used to subscribe to the Westminster Theological Journal. Even the excellent commentary I'm reading now (Pastoral Epistles, New International Greek Testament Commentary series) is written by an OPC scholar.

But I'm really ignorant of the worship styles used in OPC and PCA-type churches. The Presbyterian church I used to attend some years back is not in any way linked to either (and would most likely consider both denominations semi-heretical for their expert use of the Greek New Testament) but strangely, their worship style sets the standard for me on how worship music should be conducted. Naturally, every song they sing is a hymn. They use hymnals (no projection, eek!) and their hymnals are the real thing - lyrics enclosed by music notes. No musical instruments with the sole exception of a fine sounding grand piano. No guitarist who thinks he's a younger version of Pete Townshend, no crashing cymbals threatening to split your eardrums, no dancing girls - today, the female worship leader was wearing a light skirt quite a bit above her skinny knees and she had to hold her skirt down because a draft would create an immodest scene! - nothing at all to distract you from true worship.

stevenfrancis · Jan 24, 2016

MechPebbles said:
After decades as a Christian and going from one church to another, I have finally come to realize that I face a serious problem. I am a Calvinistic Baptistic cessationistic evangelical and it seems to me that all theologically conservative churches fall into two groups that I find disagreeable in some ways:

Group A Churches:
These are the modern evangelical churches. I don't like (more often, can't stand) the following:
1) The modern praise-and-worship songs. You may think this is a small thing but how do I worship God with songs filled with paltry, superficial lyrics? And I really hate drums and electric guitars during worship. The worst is when a rare hymn makes an appearance and the drummer puts on a martial beat. I honestly wanna puke!
2) These churches have no stated doctrinal stand except for the most basic. Their theological stand is dependent on who the latest pastor is. There's a Baptist church I usually attend which is currently cessationistic but used to insist that all its members make a personal pledge that all the spiritual gifts are still being given today (and I was politely told to leave!).

Group B Churches:
These are the fundamentalist or semi-fundamentalist churches. I can't stand these:
1) Some of them are KJV-Only churches.
2) Some are against learning Koine Greek and the use of the Greek New Testament.
3) Many are against today's evangelical scholars and their works. I study the Bible using modern commentaries and I find it objectionable that pastors can oppose the accomplished work of these Godly men (and women).
4) All hold to some kind of a separatist stand applied to the larger evangelical body. I understand that there are many things wrong in the evangelical world but it is sinful to separate ourselves from our brothers and sisters who honor the Lord and His Word just because of some differences.

How do I find a church I can belong to? Even the Reformed Baptist Church, what I would consider to be a theological custom-fit for me, is firmly entrenched in Group B.

I'm not very familiar with a few of the tags you have put on yourself. I have no idea what a cessationist is, for instance. But looking at a few of your complaints about churches, I do sympathize. If you agree with these statements (The Apostle's Creed), then I have 2 recommendations to explore, if you're interested. Other than that, I'm sure you'll lot's of recommendations from others.

These statements are meant for personal reflection. I have no expectation of an answer here on these public forums. These are between you and God. If you find you agree with all the statements, then I recommend looking into your local Eastern Orthodox, Eastern Catholic, or Roman Catholic parish. These 3, (2 really), observe and believe all elements of the creed. May God bless and guide you in your journey, and peace be with you.

I believe in God, the father almighty

I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, Our Lord

Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit

Born of the Virgin Mary

Suffered under Pontius Pilate

Was crucified, died, and was buried

He descended into Hell

He rose again on the third day

He ascended into Heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father

From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit

The Holy *catholic (universal) Church

The communion of Saints

The forgiveness of sins

The resurrection of body

And Life in the world to come

stevenfrancis · Jan 24, 2016

Thursday said:
That's what I believe. But the idea is the same no matter where you end up.

As Chesterton said, "we don't need a church that is right when we are right, we need a Church that is right when we are wrong"

One of my favorite quotes from this brilliant writer

twin1954 · Jan 25, 2016

MechPebbles said:
I was in a small fundamentalist Presbyterian church for about 7 years and even though I have never found convincing the argument from circumcision used to support paedobaptism, my real objections regarding that church are the four listed under what I have called Group B churches. I have always had the highest regard for conservative Presbyterians and, as a Calvinistic Baptist, I think of them as Big Brother.

Thanks for the offer but doesn't loaning a Kindle book involve sharing your password? Too risky. Besides, reading the back and forth arguments between paedobaptism and credobaptism bores me terribly. I tried reading the articles on this subject in a recent issue of Themelios but I had to stop from sheer lack of interest. It seems to me that both sides are guilty of stretching Scripture to make it say something it never really intended. Well, perhaps the Presbyterians are slightly more guilty of it than the Baptists, but I'm sure I'm just being biased.

Of course the differences between Baptist Covenant theology and Presbyterian are more than just about baptism. But I understand. If you haven't already read it you can find Pink on the covenants here:
http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/index.htm

RobertDLindstrom · Jan 27, 2016

There is a Church in Longview TX called the JESUS Christ International Church, very good church. It's a Word church where they go into the deep things from Genesis to Revelation. I went there and saw with my eyes the Pastors there led of the Holy Ghost preaching and teaching the person of JESUS and His work and what the body of Christ will be doing in these last days as the body of Christ is led into all truth.

MechPebbles · Jan 28, 2016

RobertDLindstrom said:
There is a Church in Longview TX called the JESUS Christ International Church, very good church. It's a Word church where they go into the deep things from Genesis to Revelation. I went there and saw with my eyes the Pastors there led of the Holy Ghost preaching and teaching the person of JESUS and His work and what the body of Christ will be doing in these last days as the body of Christ is led into all truth.

The Jesus Christ International Church subscribes to Oneness Pentecostalism which denies the Trinitarian God and teaches that the one God manifests Himself in different ways or modes, ie., as the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. Theologically, this is known as modalism or Sabellianism and is condemned all through church history as a heresy. Orthodox Christians believe in one God in three Persons.

RobertDLindstrom · Jan 28, 2016

No, they are not Oneness. They are One God to the Bone! JESUS who is The Father of Glory manifest in the flesh, called the Son of God. The Son of God office never existed until 2000 years ago When God decided to dwell in a body of flesh and blood, a kinsmen redeemer. He had to take off His glory and become like one of us to redeem all mankind back to Himself. He had to be an Adam after the fall. Under the Law.

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

He could not work any miracles until He was 30 years of age. Why? He could only be a high priest at age 30 because of the Laws restrictions. John the baptist transferred his priesthood to JESUS.

Luk_1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

JESUS was under the Law. He had to pray to the Father. There was a middle wall of partition separating us from the Father that He had to destroy in order for us to have a relationship with God again because a man lost it which was Adam and only a man can get it back, which is JESUS the second Adam.

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Why did JESUS have to pray to the Father if He is the Father? Because He is UNDER the LAW.
He made Himself of NO REPUTATION. He took off ALL His Glory to work as a man.

Albion · Jan 28, 2016

RobertDLindstrom said:
No, they are not Oneness. They are One God to the Bone! JESUS who is The Father of Glory manifest in the flesh, called the Son of God. The Son of God office never existed until 2000 years ago When God decided to dwell in a body of flesh and blood, a kinsmen redeemer. He had to take off His glory and become like one of us to redeem all mankind back to Himself. He had to be an Adam after the fall. Under the Law.

That IS Oneness.

Look Up · Jan 28, 2016

I also found this @ http://www.dennisbeard.org/welcome.html:

We believe salvation to be repentance and baptism in the name of JESUS Christ for the remission of sins and one must be filled with the Holy Ghost with the outward evidence of speaking in tongues. Acts 2:38, Acts 4:12, Acts 8:16, Acts 10, and Acts 19. One must walk in the light as He is in the light until we come unto the measure of the fullness of the stature of JESUS Christ unto a perfect man. The three seasons of the Lord have seven feasts which depict the seven steps of salvation as follows ...

Beard appears to be director at Jesus Christ International Church in Longview, TX.

-- Not that I want to encourage marching down this path too far on this thread. Sufficient grounds for MechPebbles not attending are sufficient.

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