Differences in Religion

lucaspa said:

ALL evidence is personal experience: what we see, hear, touch, taste, smell, or feel emotionally. That was first demonstrated by an atheist, David Hume, and no one has successfully challenged it since. Theists have that type of evidence.

It is atheists who want to change the rules and decide to change what counts as evidence.

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I never thought I'd be glad for the support of Hume.

KCfromNC said:

Evidence differs from personal experience in that it can be shared objectively with other people. Sure, the measurement that a piece of wood is a foot long is one person's subjective experience. Have a dozen unrelated people do the test and get the same answer and then you're on to something.

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Ooh. Measurement theory. That's a fun topic.

KCfromNC said:

But is it relevant to anything I said?

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Sure. It's just that our views are so very far apart that I question the value of jumping into the middle of it.

KCfromNC said:

Evidence differs from personal experience in that it can be shared objectively with other people. Sure, the measurement that a piece of wood is a foot long is one person's subjective experience. Have a dozen unrelated people do the test and get the same answer and then you're on to something.

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(emphasis mine)

Since this is a somewhat trivial example, it might seem like nitpicking for me to focus on that one word. But, considering the more complex issues that separate us, that is where I would start - with the question: By "same" do you mean "identical"?

KCfromNC said:

Why bother to bring it up if you don't want to discuss it? This seems to be a pattern - bring up something and vaguely allude to how it shows that someone's point is wrong but then be reluctant to discuss it when asked for details. It's an example of poisoning the well, which isn't a particularly straightforward way of discussing thing.

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There could be circumstances where you were right. But things are not as simple as that. So, you probably don't want (or need) to hear all of this, but I'll be straight up.

First of all, life isn't perfect. I have some very nasty personal issues to wrestle with. Odd as it may seem, this forum is an escape for me - a way to release tension. I enjoy the intellectual challenge brought by those whose view differs from mine, and such discussions are just a way to get my mind off other things. I may try to "prove" my viewpoint just for the sake of the challenge of doing it, but I honestly have no agenda or any intention of stong-arming anyone to accept Christianity as I see it.

So, I find all your comments about how I'm trying to "sell" and so forth quite humorous. From time to time someone makes a good point that puts a hole in my position. When that happens, I'll say it straight up - and I have. When I don't say that, it means the opposing argument just isn't convincing. I'm sure I don't concede as often as people would like, and I know they think I'm in a ridiculous position sometimes (note my byline), but that's the way it is. Rather than getting frustrated and turning to ad hominem comments about it all, I prefer dicing up the issue and trying to understand where the differences lie.

So, on the personal side, there are, unfortunately, things that come up from time to time that pull me away. When that happens, I disappear for days or weeks or maybe my replies become a bit abrupt. After all, I don't like to leave a conversation hanging in the middle.

With respect to those I'm speaking to, yes, sometimes I make some exploratory comments to test their position. If someone is dogmatically dug in and starts into "just because" answers - not interested. No disrespect intended, that's just not why I'm here. Or, if someone launches into derogatory mode - not interested. I'm know there are other people here (on both sides) who enjoy the "dis" game, so have at it, but leave me out.

And what about you, KC? You'll say you don't care what my opinion is, but you're in the middle. There are some who do a better job of maintaining a calm, mature discussion about the issue. There are some who do worse. Given that I have that opinion of you, I may misinterpret your comments from time to time - maybe taking them as more of a jab than you meant it to be. But I will say that the whole "I'm just being honest" line too often spoken by insensitive people is nonsense. I know. I used to be one of those people.

So, as to my brief, rather vague comment a few posts ago. From what did it stem? A very complex combination of all my above comments. I'm sorry if you don't like that, but there it is.

[edit] I guess all of that was meant to say that some of my side comments are a somewhat nervous habit (a social nicety) of trying to apologize for some of my inconsistencies without going into a lengthy explanation of all my shortcomings. Maybe not necessary, but it happens nonetheless.

KCfromNC said:

No.

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I didn't think so, but just thought it best to be clear. Based on the first comment in your post I don't know if this answer means you think I'm unreasonable and you're hoping I'll just go away, or if you're playing close to the vest because you're not sure where I'm going with this.

I have several options, and honestly I'd like to do all of them. But if I mention them all simultaneously, this would get much too confusing. So, I'll pick just one.

My thoughts often jump to the issue of noise - the reason the measurements are not identical is because of noise. At least when I did my engineering degree it was common for students to do an exercise where everybody measured the same thing and then compared answers. It was a way to introduce some of the statistical concepts associated with noise. But one of the mentors at my company repeats that exercise for young engineers to make a point that too often is not made in school (as such, I think the "education" of those who only experience science in school is incomplete - a point Bauer hammers on in his book).

So, would you like an example of how "it's not all about the noise"? That might give us a reasonable basis for digging deeper into this thing about half a dozen people getting the "same" answer.