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Difference between a fact ,theory and a guess

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mindlight

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So the following are not facts:
- Napoleon was defeated at Waterloo.

FACT : By virtue of eyewitness reports from all sides of the battle, by relics from the battle field.

- The Moon orbits the Earth.

FACT: Again demonstrable by space ship or by trigonometry

- Stars are light years away from us.

SCIENTIFIC THEORY: Given Speed of light, trigonometric angles etc - has very high probability, but not incontrovertible as we do not know how light travels in deep space etc. Until we go to another star not demonstrable.

- The Earth has a solid core.

SCIENTIFC THEORY: Has a very high probability, but cannot be demonstrated


EDIT:
After discussion will Change my categorisation of Waterloo to a scientific theory, even though it is clearly an historical fact
 
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Mountainmike

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Just say what you want to say, I dont like semantic games.
Neither do I like games.
I like science I am very good at it... I have been to the extremes of quantum physics.

You used the word fact: is the existence of the moon a fact?
 
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VirOptimus

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Neither do I like games.
I like science I am very good at it... I have been to the extremes of quantum physics.

You used the word fact: is the existence of the moon a fact?

Been to the extremes of quantum physics? What does that even mean?

Until you show different my estimation is that you know very little about science, and even less about theology and philosophy.
 
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sfs

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FACT : By virtue of eyewitness reports from all sides of the battle, by relics from the battle field.
Neither of which play any role in your stated definition of "fact". Even you don't seem to accept your definition.
 
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mindlight

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Thanks for your post. It reminded me of a lengthy discussion I once had in a relaxed state with my wife as to whether the washing up in the next room existed or not. She knew it was there, but neither of us had direct viewing of it, we questioned each others conceptual models (you always want to clean versus you never want to clean), only my wife had a direct memory of it. I knew that I could trust her and that she was a generally reliable source (she does not lie). In the end my simply getting up and viewing it could demonstrate that my wifes conceptual models and memories and statements held up in the real world and I did the washing up. There are some things not worth arguing about as they are clearly demonstrable or have such a high probaility value as to be obvious. Facts are things you really have to subscribe to if you want to live in the real world.

The blurring of boundaries between what cannot be demonstrated and what can is a serious Problem amongst many scientists today though
 
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Mountainmike

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Been to the extremes of quantum physics? What does that even mean?

Until you show different my estimation is that you know very little about science, and even less about theology and philosophy.
So that's your standard reply to people you don't know is it?

It is clear to me you know little about the reality of science.

Here is an actual fact.
Science believes that nothing exists till observed

Study the Copenhagen interpretation and bell experiments. Einstein lamented " he refused to believe the moon existed until he observed it" but was forced to concede it was true.

So your entire concept of the existence of the universe or moon outside your observation is false.

Indeed science is just a model.
That conjectures an infinite number of universes of all futures and pasts selected when you observe,

I suspect you know little of the thing called science you put faith in!
 
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USincognito

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FACT : By virtue of eyewitness reports from all sides of the battle, by relics from the battle field.
Did you forget your own definition?
FACT:A fact is demonstrable with repeatable experimentation that anybody with the right equipment and appropriate training could duplicate.
 
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VirOptimus

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I see, well, my estimation is indeed correct. Thank you for the QED!
 
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mindlight

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Neither of which play any role in your stated definition of "fact". Even you don't seem to accept your definition.

This is an historical fact but strictly speaking a scientific theory only with a very high probability of truth. Historical Facts are measured by the Quality and quantity of eyewitness testimony rather than demonstrability.

Anyone can read the countless books on the battle, visit Stratford Saye (home of Wellington who won the battle), see Pictures painted by artsists on both sides, go the battle field itself to see Museums and relics that have been dug up on site, note that official government records for France and the UK include accounts of the battle.
 
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mindlight

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Did you forget your own definition?

No my definition remains though I have changed my Waterloo answer. The difference between an historical fact and a scientific fact is the Quality and quantity of the eyewitness sources rather than the ability to conjure up 2 opposing armies on the field of Waterloo everytime someone doubts the battle took place.

But a scientific fact requires Demonstration or by Definition it is not a scientific fact.

But this is a good example of the limits of science as a method for finding out the truth of a matter compared to history
 
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expos4ever

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And there is atheist science..Dawkins crap.
No.

Dawkins is an atheist, and he is also a scientist. These two positions are conceptually distinct.

I am an engineer. I am also a Christian.

Does that mean there is such a thing as “Christian engineering”.

Of course not.
 
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mindlight

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Since the OP is not so subtly suggesting that BBT is an "atheistic guess", I'd say it's entirely germane.

Big Bang is a theory that cannot be duplicated , makes no clear predictions of any practical worth and given our limited vision of the universe may not explain anything. So yes it is speculation based on limited observations.

It does not really matter if a Christian came up with it. The point is that it does not give any kind of certainty about our origins
 
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mindlight

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The Big Bang isn't a pillar of modern naturalistic science. It was first posited by a Catholic priest.

Catholic priests also subscribed to a Ptolemaic vision of the stars for many years. This thread is about the level of certainty that can be ascribed to something. Fact is BBT is a best guess of no practical worth.
 
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mindlight

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All Christians subscribe to creatio ex nihilo. But BBT is in effect an attempt to marry religion with an old view of the universe. It requires billions of years to be a credible theory. Since absolutely nothing can be proven scientifically over those kinds of time spans it is just guessing of little practical worth.
 
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mindlight

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You could not even demonstrate the battle of Waterloo took place scientifically even though it is an obvious historical fact. If an event just 200 years ago is not demonstrable what chance has a process you say took billions of years?!
 
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VirOptimus

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You could not even demonstrate the battle of Waterloo took place scientifically even though it is an obvious historical fact. If an event just 200 years ago is not demonstrable what chance has a process you say took billions of years?!

Just because you dont understand it doesnt mean its not doable.
 
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Silmarien

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Catholic priests also subscribed to a Ptolemaic vision of the stars for many years. This thread is about the level of certainty that can be ascribed to something. Fact is BBT is a best guess of no practical worth.

Because it was the best theory on the table for many years. Even Ptolemaic astronomy was of real worth at one point, given that it was supported by the calculations. People weren't just making stuff up.


You are familiar with how astronomy works, I hope? People build models to best explain the empirical observations--this is how Ptolemaic astronomy was eventually overthrown in favor of Capernican astronomy, since once Kepler came onto the scene and ditched the idea of perfect circular orbits, the heliocentrists finally got their calculations together so that their model explained more.

The Big Bang Theory is popular because it is currently the best explanation of empirical observations. Not because of any sort of philosophical agenda. The fact that it requires billions of years is not actually a problem for it.
 
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