Did the Virgin Mary...

Radagast · Mar 31, 2005

Serapha said:
As long as denominational strife distracts the seekers, they remain lost.

Indeed! I hope the mods will quarantine the strife to war zones like "General Theology.'

-- Radagast

Bizzlebin Imperatoris · Mar 31, 2005

Radagast said:
Indeed! I hope the mods will quarantine the strife to war zones like "General Theology.'

The strife and trouble is not caused by dialogue or debate between two denominations, but the mere existance of them. You don't have to watch two snakes fight each other to see that they are both poisonous.

Emmy · Mar 31, 2005

Dear darthvader,I found serapha`s reply very informative,and I have always thought that Mary was a virgin for Jesus`birth,but after that she was Joseph`s wife and had children by him.Yet the Catholic version makes sense too,and to know the real truth darthvader,we have to wait until the day we find out for ourselves.The Prophet Isaiah,foretold that a Saviour would be born by a Virgin,and that happened.Sincere greetings from Emmy,a sister in Christ.

Monica02 · Mar 31, 2005

wink said:
Monica, what does "assumed" mean? Is that like "translated"? Or caught up to Heaven?
I'm woefully ignorant re: teachings of Catholic church, so would appreciate a definition.

Hope this helps.

religion-cults.com/mary/assumption.htm

WashedClean · Mar 31, 2005

Monica02 said:
Hope this helps.

religion-cults.com/mary/assumption.htm

Hi Monica,

I hope you don't mind me asking a question based on your link?

I did not read the entire article, but quite a bit of it. Could you explain something based on this quote:

Right now there are only two persons in Heaven with their human body and soul: Jesus and Mary... the body of all the other Saints is in the cemetery or in relics... and at the Second Coming of Jesus, at the sound of the trumpet, they will raise imperishable, with their bodies transformed with immortality... but right now, only Jesus an Mary are in body and soul in Heaven.

It sounds like Jesus and Mary are equals here. Maybe I'm reading too much into that. But my main question is this: Why isn't Elijah mentioned here? Wasn't he taken up to heaven by God's power as well? Just curious.

Thanking you in advance,

WC

dhiannian · Mar 31, 2005

darthvader said:
Please don't take offense to this as it is a genuine question and I am not writing this to offend anyone...

I know the Virgin Mary was (at least according to the Bible) a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus. How a virgin can have a child aside, did she die a virgin? Becuase, you know, she was married and (hopefully) in love with Joseph, and I'd find it hard to believe they didn't "get it on" at least once.

Ok They were not married like we are, it's called betrothal.
They were betrothed to each other, so in everyone elses eyes married, because she was off limits.
and promised to someone.
http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/jewish_marriage_customs.htm

FreestyleFred · Mar 31, 2005

WashedClean said:
Hi Monica,

I hope you don't mind me asking a question based on your link?

I did not read the entire article, but quite a bit of it. Could you explain something based on this quote:

It sounds like Jesus and Mary are equals here. Maybe I'm reading too much into that. But my main question is this: Why isn't Elijah mentioned here? Wasn't he taken up to heaven by God's power as well? Just curious.

Thanking you in advance,

WC

I do not understand why Catholics hold Mary in such a high position. Yes, she was a great woman, yes it was amazing that she gave birth the the Son of God, but she was still just a woman. I see statues of Mary at different Catholic churches, I see people saying the Hail Mary Prayer, etc etc. I think that for many Catholics it is at a state of idolism. (Not saying all Catholics) I went to that link and it states that Mary's body was never corrupted. Is this trying to say that she never sinned? It is my personal opinion that many Catholics focus has strayed from Christ and onto Saints and Mary. Even the pope directly violated a basic teaching of the Bible when he said that he believes that Saint Peter gives him his authority.

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Romans 13:1

I hope I don't anger people for posting this here. I angered some people when I mistakingly posted the information about the pope in the Catholics forum. (I didn't realize it was the Catholic forum when I posted, it is against the rules of that forum to post anything against the Catholic church (whether the teachings of the Catholic church go against the Bible or not), so don't do that there, lol.)
Any responses to this? Specifically Catholics please.
PS:Not trying to offend nor stir any trouble up with this post. It is my opinion and the questions are simply my curiosity.

masuwerte · Mar 31, 2005

What difference could it possibly make to you or me if Mary was ever-virgin, assumed into heaven or not? She is a saint in heaven, most highly favored and all generations shall call her blessed. If Mary's example of obedience to God's will ("let it be done to me") draws us closer to God through Jesus Christ, that's wonderful. But Jesus is the one who died for us, the one who offers us salvation.

Radagast · Mar 31, 2005

Bizzlebin Imperatoris said:
The strife and trouble is not caused by dialogue or debate between two denominations, but the mere existance of them. You don't have to watch two snakes fight each other to see that they are both poisonous.

Hey, I'm sure neither of us is poisonous!

Happy Birthday!!!

-- Radagast

Radagast · Mar 31, 2005

sandman said:
The Bible also teaches that Joseph got it on {as someone else put it} with Mary before Jesus was born

No it doesn't -- go and read the Gospels again!

-- Radagast

Bizzlebin Imperatoris · Apr 2, 2005

FreestyleFred said:
I do not understand why Catholics hold Mary in such a high position. Yes, she was a great woman, yes it was amazing that she gave birth the the Son of God, but she was still just a woman. I see statues of Mary at different Catholic churches, I see people saying the Hail Mary Prayer, etc etc. I think that for many Catholics it is at a state of idolism. (Not saying all Catholics) I went to that link and it states that Mary's body was never corrupted. Is this trying to say that she never sinned? It is my personal opinion that many Catholics focus has strayed from Christ and onto Saints and Mary.

She was the mother of God. She is the queen of heaven. Psalm 45:

6Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
7You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.
8All Your garments are scented with myrrh and aloes and cassia,
Out of the ivory palaces, by which they have made You glad.
9Kings' daughters are among Your honorable women;
At Your right hand stands the queen in gold from Ophir.

Certainly some people idolize Mary, but more people idolize food, falling into gluttony.

No, Mary didn't sin. Why would she?

Certainly, focusing on Mary and the Saints as examples of how to live is not wrong. As long as Christ is still first, we are not falling into idolatry.

WashedClean · Apr 2, 2005

Bizzlebin Imperatoris said:
She was the mother of God. She is the queen of heaven. Psalm 45:

6Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
7You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.
8All Your garments are scented with myrrh and aloes and cassia,
Out of the ivory palaces, by which they have made You glad.
9Kings' daughters are among Your honorable women;
At Your right hand stands the queen in gold from Ophir.

Certainly some people idolize Mary, but more people idolize food, falling into gluttony.

Click to expand...

I fail to see how this Psalm refers to Mary. But you are correct about more people idolizing food.

No, Mary didn't sin. Why would she?

Click to expand...

Because she's human? Let me ask you this, if Mary never sinned because of God's grace by holding her back from sinning, then why doesn't he just do that for everyone? Also, wouldn't that take away her free will?

Thanks for your reply!

Bizzlebin Imperatoris · Apr 2, 2005

WashedClean said:
I fail to see how this Psalm refers to Mary. But you are correct about more people idolizing food.

Because she's human? Let me ask you this, if Mary never sinned because of God's grace by holding her back from sinning, then why doesn't he just do that for everyone? Also, wouldn't that take away her free will?

Thanks for your reply!

The first part is from a section talking about Jesus. The final part of that quote does refer to His queen, Mary.

Of course she is human, but all humans are not forced to sin. This would be as bad as being forced not to! God did not hold her from sin, she did it herself, with the help of God. If you were the mother of God, why would you even want to sin?

Faith In God · Apr 2, 2005

Bizzlebin Imperatoris said:
She was the mother of God. She is the queen of heaven. Psalm 45:

6Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
7You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.
8All Your garments are scented with myrrh and aloes and cassia,
Out of the ivory palaces, by which they have made You glad.
9Kings' daughters are among Your honorable women;
At Your right hand stands the queen in gold from Ophir.

Certainly some people idolize Mary, but more people idolize food, falling into gluttony.

...How is Mary the queen in gold from Ophir?

No, Mary didn't sin. Why would she?

Ah, ...that would be because she is human. Unless, you know, God is wrong when He proclaimed that none were good, none sought Him, and humanity is altogether evil.

Certainly, focusing on Mary and the Saints as examples of how to live is not wrong.

Following examples is not wrong.

As long as Christ is still first, we are not falling into idolatry.

True, but people love flirting with this line so badly, it's not funny.

[very important] In the NT, people tried to bless Jesus' mother, but Christ Himself said that blessed, rather, are those that hear God's word and obey it. Mary is no 'better' than any other. Any goodness any human can have is a direct gift from God; else it is of our own merit, and this goes against all of Paul's epistles.

PS I know this sounds like a disagreement, Bizzlebin, but I'm trying to clarify this up as much as possible, though it might turn out to be a disagreement...

Serapha · Apr 2, 2005

Bizzlebin Imperatoris said:
The first part is from a section talking about Jesus. The final part of that quote does refer to His queen, Mary.

Of course she is human, but all humans are not forced to sin. This would be as bad as being forced not to! God did not hold her from sin, she did it herself, with the help of God. If you were the mother of God, why would you even want to sin?

Hi there!

Therefore God, your God, has anointed you
With the oil of joy above your fellows.
All Your garments are fragrant
with myrrh and aloes and cassia;
Kings daughters are among your noble ladies;
At your right hand stands the queen in gold from Ophir. (Ps 45:7-9)

A couple of points concerning that passage... To be a king required that one be annointed with oil ... but at the same time, in the ancient middle east, they would burn incense to scent the clothing...and as a gesture in leaving, the incense burner would be offered to the one leaving who would wave the fragrance of the incense toward his face and to allow the incense to permeate his clothing... a form of perfuming the body, if you will...

The "queen" of the "king" is the Bride of Christ... not the mother of Christ..... and the Bride of Christ is wearing the wedding apparel of "gold"... probably "gold" embroidered material.

~serapha~

JJM · Apr 2, 2005

darthvader said:
I'd find it hard to believe they didn't "get it on" at least once.

Did you know this is directly from the movie dogma?

motgets · Apr 3, 2005

No, Mary didn't sin. Why would she?

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

JJM · Apr 3, 2005

motgets said:
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Did Jesus sin?

12volt_man · Apr 3, 2005

Bizzlebin Imperatoris said:
The first part is from a section talking about Jesus. The final part of that quote does refer to His queen, Mary.

As Serapha pointed out, this isn't referring to Mary, but to the Bride of Christ.

Of course she is human, but all humans are not forced to sin. This would be as bad as being forced not to! God did not hold her from sin, she did it herself, with the help of God. If you were the mother of God, why would you even want to sin?

First of all, let's remember that God has no mother.

Second, if Mary did not sin, then why did she acknowledge her need for a Savior in Luke 1:47?

motgets · Apr 3, 2005

JJM said:
Did Jesus sin?

Romans 3:
23: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26: To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.

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