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Did the Jews of Jesus' day kill our saviour or not? --- part 2

JackRT

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This question is asked in another thread to which I cannot reply. This old sermon of mine touches on the question and might be of interest to some:

 

com7fy8

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Not all the Jews were in on it, but only the evil ones who were involved. There were Jews who were Jesus' disciples. And Jesus was Jewish and He did not kill Himself

Also, Roman soldiers were involved in torturing and mocking and murdering Jesus.

And ones who hate Jews are in their hearts still murdering Jesus, by being so anti-love, while God still dearly loves Jewish people. So, there are still people in their hearts essentially murdering Jesus on the cross, by not loving the Jews the way Jesus on the cross was loving them. They are being against Jesus on the cross who so loved any and all evil people, with hope for any evil person, at all. So, if they are against Jews, they are against Jesus and His hope for them all, and us all > love "hopes all things" (in 1 Corinthians 13:7).

But Jesus has hope for ones who are hating Him by being against Jews whom He died for. All of us have been "children of wrath, just as the others," our Apostle Paul, a Jew, says, in Ephesians 2:1-10.
 
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The Hammer of Witches

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This question is asked in another thread to which I cannot reply. This old sermon of mine touches on the question and might be of interest to some:
Not Jews, but the synagogue of Satan+the Romans. Much like America today, ancient Israel had leadership who worried about the praise of man rather than God. While they were Jews, they were not of God. Many Jews and Romans later found Christ, so we cannot blame all the Jews and people of Roman decent of course; but only the people who denied Christ and therefore the Father (some happened to be Jews). This is the synagogue of Satan, people who claim to be Gods people and are not.

So to sum it up, the people that crucified Jesus were Jews and Romans, but we cannot say that all the Jews are responsible. Eventually the nation of Israel will come around to God again in the End Times.
 
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com7fy8

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The Jews killed Jesus. The bible says it, that settles it.
But the Bible does not say that only Jews killed Jesus. The Bible also says the Roman soldiers were involved. And Pilate, a Gentile, turned Jesus over to be crucified, though he had authority to refuse to do that.

And I think God expects us to understand that not all Jews were actively killing Jesus. Unborn baby Jews were not actively killing Jesus, I consider. And John the beloved disciple was a Jew, and he did not kill Jesus. And when Peter a Jew told the people that they crucified Jesus, Peter, also a Jew, says "you" crucified Jesus; he does not say "we", which would mean Peter was included. So, the Bible is clear that not any and all Jews killed Jesus, but only those who were involved.

Plus, Jesus has used Jews to bring us the gospel. Our Apostle Paul is a Jew, and Paul is the apostle to us Gentiles. He was murderous against Christians, but Paul turned from his evil. Any Jew who was guilty of the murder of Jesus could repent of that and become a child of God. There were Jews who heard Peter tell them that they murdered Jesus, and they repented > the Bible also tells us this > Acts 2:36-39.

So, it is wise to forgive the Jews who have repented of murdering Jesus. Or else, a person is against Jesus Christ and His forgiveness. And even right while Jesus was on the cross, Jesus prayed, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do." (in Luke 23:34) So, even while Jesus was still on the cross He was praying forgiveness to those Jews who were still busy with hating and murdering Jesus who is God's Son. And this is our example >

"Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:31-32)

So, if we really believe the Bible settles things, the Bible says to forgive one another, "even as God in Christ forgave you."

And the Bible also says we are to follow the example of how Jesus loved us, while He was on the cross >

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, and offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)
 
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anonymous person

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When I say "the Jews" I'm using it in the sense that John uses the phrase "His own" when he said "He came unto His own, and His own did not receive Him".

The Jews collectively rejected their Messiah. Of course this does not mean every Jewish person was against Jesus. What it does mean is that as a people to whom Jesus was sent, they rejected Him. I am very pro Israel because Israel is still the apple of God's eye and He has reserved even now a remnant unto Himself.
 
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JackRT

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The Jews collectively rejected their Messiah.

They most certainly did not. Those Jews who were involved in colluding with the Romans to have Jesus executed were no more than a few dozen. Most of the remaining 10,000,000 Jews alive at the time had never even heard of him.

Quote: JESUS of NAZARETH: HIS LIFE, TIMES AND TEACHING ( 1925 ) by Joseph Klausner:
"In his ethical code there is a sublimity, distinctiveness and originality in form unparalleled in any other Hebrew ethical code; neither is there any parallel to the remarkable art of his parables. The shrewdness and sharpness of his proverbs and his forcible epigrams serve, in an exceptional degree, to make ethical ideas a popular possession. If ever the day should come and this ethical code be stripped of it's wrappings of miracle and mysticism, the Book of the Ethics of Jesus will be one of the choicest treasures in the literature of Israel for all time."

Hardly a rejection. There is no question that the Jews accepted Jesus. What they did reject was the interpretations of his followers.
 
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anonymous person

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Whether or not the Jews rejected Jesus is not really a matter of debate. In numerous places throughout the bible it is clearly stated they did. You quoting Joseph Klausner does nothing to nullify this fact.
 
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aiki

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So much speculation and so much flat-out error in that sermon! Cloaked as they are in a torrent of historical/cultural trivia (that, ironically, obscures rather than clarifies) it might be tempting to an uninformed listener/reader to ignore - or not even notice - how fundamentally speculative and erroneous many of your remarks and conclusions are. When a preacher resorts to a lot of "scene setting" it has always been, in my experience, a precursor to a warping or denial of the plain declaration of God's word. In this regard, you align quite well with my experience so far.

Selah.
 
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JackRT

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Must have felt good to get that out of your system.
 
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JackRT

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It never feels good to see God's word diminished and twisted.

God's "Word" is not a book it is a person. I never seek to diminish or twist scripture but I do seek to better understand it.
 
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Sketcher

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The Jews handed him to the Romans to be crucified. Sadly, there are some today that stand by this decision and would do it again given the chance. This is not to be understood to mean that Jews today should be persecuted, or that everything that happened to the Jews since was justified. Evil men did evil things to the Jews in the name of Christianity. If men today use something that happened 2000 years ago as an excuse for maltreatment of the Jews, they're just making excuses.
 
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JackRT

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The Jews handed him to the Romans to be crucified

It was not "The Jews" who were implicated in the execution of Jesus. It was a few dozen of the elite in the High Priesthood and the Herodians. The vast majority of Jews in the first century knew absolutely nothing of Jesus.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Romans 3:31Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
31 Does it follow that we abolish Torah by this trusting? Heaven forbid! On the contrary, we confirm Torah.

Romans 3:11-31Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

11 no one seeks God,
12 all have turned away
and at the same time become useless;
there is no one who shows kindness, not a single one!a]">[a]

13 “Their throats are open graves,
they use their tongues to deceive.b]">[b]
Vipers’ venom is under their lips.c]">[c]
14 Their mouths are full of curses and bitterness.d]">[d]

15 “Their feet rush to shed blood,
16 in their ways are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of shalom they do not know.e]">[e]

18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”f]">[f]

19 Moreover, we know that whatever the Torah says, it says to those living within the framework of the Torah, in order that every mouth may be stopped and the whole world be shown to deserve God’s adverse judgment. 20 For in his sight no one alive will be considered righteousg]">[g] on the ground of legalistic observance of Torah commands, because what Torah really does is show people how sinful they are.

21 But now, quite apart from Torah, God’s way of making people righteous in his sight has been made clear — although the Torah and the Prophets give their witness to it as well — 22 and it is a righteousness that comes from God, through the faithfulness of Yeshua the Messiah, to all who continue trusting. For it makes no difference whether one is a Jew or a Gentile, 23 since all have sinned and come short of earning God’s praise. 24 By God’s grace, without earning it, all are granted the status of being considered righteous before him, through the act redeeming us from our enslavement to sin that was accomplished by the Messiah Yeshua. 25 God put Yeshua forward as the kapparah for sin through his faithfulness in respect to his bloody sacrificial death. This vindicated God’s righteousness; because, in his forbearance, he had passed over [with neither punishment nor remission] the sins people had committed in the past; 26 and it vindicates his righteousness in the present age by showing that he is righteous himself and is also the one who makes people righteous on the ground of Yeshua’s faithfulness.

27 So what room is left for boasting? None at all! What kind of Torah excludes it? One that has to do with legalistic observance of rules? No, rather, a Torah that has to do with trusting. 28 Therefore, we hold the view that a person comes to be considered righteous by God on the ground of trusting, which has nothing to do with legalistic observance of Torah commands.

29 Or is God the God of the Jews only? Isn’t he also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, he is indeed the God of the Gentiles; 30 because, as you will admit, God is one.h]">[h] Therefore, he will consider righteous the circumcised on the ground of trusting and the uncircumcised through that same trusting. 31 Does it follow that we abolish Torah by this trusting? Heaven forbid! On the contrary, we confirm Torah.

Footnotes:
  1. Romans 3:12 Psalm 14:1–3, 53:2–4(1–3)
  2. Romans 3:13 Psalm 5:10(9)
  3. Romans 3:13 Psalm 140:4(3)
  4. Romans 3:14 Psalm 10:7
  5. Romans 3:17 Isaiah 59:7–8, Proverbs 1:16
  6. Romans 3:18 Psalm 36:2(1)
  7. Romans 3:20 Psalm 143:2
  8. Romans 3:30 Deuteronomy 6:4
 
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Sketcher

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It was not "The Jews" who were implicated in the execution of Jesus. It was a few dozen of the elite in the High Priesthood and the Herodians. The vast majority of Jews in the first century knew absolutely nothing of Jesus.
They had a crowd calling for his crucifixion. It was more than just some bad actors in the Sanhedrin. Obviously, it wasn't everybody, his disciples were also Jews.
 
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