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How are you trying to do it?
I'm not so lazy that I cut-and-paste entire msgs. Follow the link that was given.
The setting of the time was wrong there is no doubt about that. Preaching the second coming of Christ was no more wrong back then than it is today.
You only have two choices here Jim. Either Ellen lied and the message was not from heaven, or it was more than just a misinterpretation by man.I'm not dancing around any issues at all Tall. What I am doing is seeing that these kinds of things have happened before in the Bible. God uses imperfect humans to accomplish His intended end. The great disappointment of 1844 was a fulfillment of the prophecy in Rev 10:10 so that makes it a divine disappointment. Who are we to question God and His plan/s? All anyone has to do is study the Bible and they will see where God has allowed man to misinterpret the truth of the Bible many times before.
Read Ellen again. She said it was God's doing, that He was behind the preaching of the time, and that it was a heavenly message used to test.The whole nation of Israel was minsinterpreting what the Messiah would do when He came the first time. Christ's own disciples thought He would set up His kingdom on earth then instead of later and they thought that right up to His ascension.
God Bless
Jim Larmore
I am showing that Ellen invalidates her own testimony by blaming God for Miller's mistakes. I am showing that Ellen would not apply her own advice to Miller regarding time setting. If she did not make an outrageous claim that God was at fault for their mistakes then there would be no "hay" to make.You are pointing a fingure at this event and trying to make hay out of it to impune or invalidate the church because you have left it.
The same way I always have by clicking on multiple quotes and going thru the post I am commenting on paragraph by paragraph. Yesterday and today I have had this happen where when I get done and hit post reply it just goes back to the thread and my post is gone. I have opened up two separate sites of CF where I cut and paste from one to the quick reply and it went. I'm not sure this one will even go but here goes.
God bless
Jim Larmore
You don't have conclusive evidence that the IJ was not started in 1844 anymore than I have solid irrefuteable evidence that it did. Right now I lean more towards the IJ starting then. If you want to re-hash the IJ I suggest one of us start another thread and do it right from post #1.
But she says God was angry with them for rejecting Miller's message in 1843--and she even admits they were objecting due to the setting of time.
God was fully behind the message and the timing of Dan 8:14 and it was fully right, not wrong. The belief that the cleansing was the second advent was what was wrong.
Notice the following quotes from Early Writings.
I saw that God was in the proclamation of the time in 1843. It was His design to arouse the people and bring them to a testing point, where they should decide for or against the truth. Ministers were convinced of the correctness of the positions taken on the prophetic periods, and some renounced their pride, and left their salaries and their churches to go forth from place to place to give the message. But as the message from heaven could find a place in the hearts of but few of the professed ministers of Christ, the work was laid upon many who were not preachers. Some left their fields to sound the message, while others were called from their shops and their merchandise. And even some professional men were compelled to leave their professions to engage in the unpopular work of giving the first angel's message. {EW 232.2}
I saw the people of God joyful in expectation, looking for their Lord. But God designed to prove them. His hand covered a mistake in the reckoning of the prophetic periods. Those who were looking for their Lord did not discover this mistake, and the most learned men who opposed the time also failed to see it. God designed that His people should meet with a disappointment. The time passed, and those who had looked with joyful expectation for their Saviour were sad and disheartened, while those who had not loved the appearing of Jesus, but embraced the message through fear, were pleased that He did not come at the time of expectation. Their profession had not affected the heart and purified the life. The passing of the time was well calculated to reveal such hearts.
236
They were the first to turn and ridicule the sorrowful, disappointed ones who really loved the appearing of their Saviour. I saw the wisdom of God in proving His people and giving them a searching test to discover those who would shrink and turn back in the hour of trial. {EW 235.3}
Jesus and all the heavenly host looked with sympathy and love upon those who had with sweet expectation longed to see Him whom their souls loved. Angels were hovering around them, to sustain them in the hour of their trial. Those who had neglected to receive the heavenly message were left in darkness, and God's anger was kindled against them, because they would not receive the light which He had sent them from heaven. Those faithful, disappointed ones, who could not understand why their Lord did not come, were not left in darkness. Again they were led to their Bibles to search the prophetic periods. The hand of the Lord was removed from the figures, and the mistake was explained. They saw that the prophetic periods reached to 1844, and that the same evidence which they had presented to show that the prophetic periods closed in 1843, proved that they would terminate in 1844. Light from the Word of God shone upon their position, and they discovered a tarrying time--"Though it [the vision] tarry, wait for it." In their love for Christ's immediate coming, they had overlooked the tarrying of the vision, which was calculated to manifest the true waiting ones. Again they had a point of time. Yet I saw that many of them could not rise above their severe disappointment to possess that degree of zeal and energy which had marked their faith in 1843. {EW 236.1}
Satan and his angels triumphed over them, and those who would not receive the message congratulated themselves upon their farseeing judgment and wisdom
237
in not receiving the delusion, as they called it. They did not realize that they were rejecting the counsel of God against themselves, and were working in union with Satan and his angels to perplex God's people, who were living out the heaven-sent message. {EW 236.2}
Ellen says that God was in the message that Jesus would come in 1843. God intentionally gave a "heaven-sent" message to Miller that was factually inaccurate. This message was a test. And those who rejected this testing message were working with Satan.
I think it is an unassailable fact that Jesus did not come in 1843, nor did He come in 1844. So how could God be behind this lying message? How were those who rejected the message on Scriptural grounds in league with Satan? Why was God's anger kindled against those who trusted in their Bibles?
What did an older, wiser, EGW say on the topic of setting dates?
Many who have called themselves Adventists have been time setters. Time
after time has been set for Christ to come, but repeated failures have been the result. The definite time of our Lord's coming is declared to be beyond
the ken of mortals. Even the angels who minister unto those who shall be
heirs of salvation know not the day nor the hour. "But of that day and hour
knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only." Because
the times repeatedly set have passed, the world is in a more decided state
of unbelief than before in regard to the near advent of Christ. They look
upon the failures of the time setters with disgust; and because men have been so deceived, they turn from the truth substantiated by the word of God
that the end of all things is at hand. {4T 307.1}
Those who so presumptuously preach definite time, in so doing gratify
the adversary of souls; for they are advancing infidelity rather than
Christianity. They produce Scripture and by false interpretation show a
chain of argument which apparently proves their position. But their failures
show that they are false prophets, that they do not rightly interpret the
language of inspiration. The word of God is truth and verity, but men have
perverted its meaning. These errors have brought the truth of God for these
ast days into disrepute.
Testimonies vol 4, pg 307
Those who set dates gratify the adversary. They string together a chain of arguments to prove their position. But their error is clear.
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only."
Why then does EGW say that God was in the false time-setting message of Miller when it goes against the biblical statement?
Why would she say that those who rejected the time-setting message in the day of Miller had God's wrath kindled against them?
Not only did the Millerites set a year, but eventually one day. Did God go against His own word and send Miller a lying date-setting message ? Was His anger kindled against those who believed the Bible and did not accept this lying message?
Where did it go???Notice the following quotes from Early Writings.
I saw that God was in the proclamation of the time in 1843. It was His design to arouse the people and bring them to a testing point, where they should decide for or against the truth. Ministers were convinced of the correctness of the positions taken on the prophetic periods, and some renounced their pride, and left their salaries and their churches to go forth from place to place to give the message. But as the message from heaven could find a place in the hearts of but few of the professed ministers of Christ, the work was laid upon many who were not preachers. Some left their fields to sound the message, while others were called from their shops and their merchandise. And even some professional men were compelled to leave their professions to engage in the unpopular work of giving the first angel's message. {EW 232.2}
I saw the people of God joyful in expectation, looking for their Lord. But God designed to prove them. His hand covered a mistake in the reckoning of the prophetic periods. Those who were looking for their Lord did not discover this mistake, and the most learned men who opposed the time also failed to see it. God designed that His people should meet with a disappointment. The time passed, and those who had looked with joyful expectation for their Saviour were sad and disheartened, while those who had not loved the appearing of Jesus, but embraced the message through fear, were pleased that He did not come at the time of expectation. Their profession had not affected the heart and purified the life. The passing of the time was well calculated to reveal such hearts.
236
They were the first to turn and ridicule the sorrowful, disappointed ones who really loved the appearing of their Saviour. I saw the wisdom of God in proving His people and giving them a searching test to discover those who would shrink and turn back in the hour of trial. {EW 235.3}
Jesus and all the heavenly host looked with sympathy and love upon those who had with sweet expectation longed to see Him whom their souls loved. Angels were hovering around them, to sustain them in the hour of their trial. Those who had neglected to receive the heavenly message were left in darkness, and God's anger was kindled against them, because they would not receive the light which He had sent them from heaven. Those faithful, disappointed ones, who could not understand why their Lord did not come, were not left in darkness. Again they were led to their Bibles to search the prophetic periods. The hand of the Lord was removed from the figures, and the mistake was explained. They saw that the prophetic periods reached to 1844, and that the same evidence which they had presented to show that the prophetic periods closed in 1843, proved that they would terminate in 1844. Light from the Word of God shone upon their position, and they discovered a tarrying time--"Though it [the vision] tarry, wait for it." In their love for Christ's immediate coming, they had overlooked the tarrying of the vision, which was calculated to manifest the true waiting ones. Again they had a point of time. Yet I saw that many of them could not rise above their severe disappointment to possess that degree of zeal and energy which had marked their faith in 1843. {EW 236.1}
Satan and his angels triumphed over them, and those who would not receive the message congratulated themselves upon their farseeing judgment and wisdom
237
in not receiving the delusion, as they called it. They did not realize that they were rejecting the counsel of God against themselves, and were working in union with Satan and his angels to perplex God's people, who were living out the heaven-sent message. {EW 236.2}
Ellen says that God was in the message that Jesus would come in 1843. God intentionally gave a "heaven-sent" message to Miller that was factually inaccurate. This message was a test. And those who rejected this testing message were working with Satan.
I think it is an unassailable fact that Jesus did not come in 1843, nor did He come in 1844. So how could God be behind this lying message? How were those who rejected the message on Scriptural grounds in league with Satan? Why was God's anger kindled against those who trusted in their Bibles?
What did an older, wiser, EGW say on the topic of setting dates?
Many who have called themselves Adventists have been time setters. Time
after time has been set for Christ to come, but repeated failures have been the result. The definite time of our Lord's coming is declared to be beyond
the ken of mortals. Even the angels who minister unto those who shall be
heirs of salvation know not the day nor the hour. "But of that day and hour
knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only." Because
the times repeatedly set have passed, the world is in a more decided state
of unbelief than before in regard to the near advent of Christ. They look
upon the failures of the time setters with disgust; and because men have been so deceived, they turn from the truth substantiated by the word of God
that the end of all things is at hand. {4T 307.1}
Those who so presumptuously preach definite time, in so doing gratify
the adversary of souls; for they are advancing infidelity rather than
Christianity. They produce Scripture and by false interpretation show a
chain of argument which apparently proves their position. But their failures
show that they are false prophets, that they do not rightly interpret the
language of inspiration. The word of God is truth and verity, but men have
perverted its meaning. These errors have brought the truth of God for these
ast days into disrepute.
Testimonies vol 4, pg 307
Those who set dates gratify the adversary. They string together a chain of arguments to prove their position. But their error is clear.
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only."
Why then does EGW say that God was in the false time-setting message of Miller when it goes against the biblical statement?
Why would she say that those who rejected the time-setting message in the day of Miller had God's wrath kindled against them?
Not only did the Millerites set a year, but eventually one day. Did God go against His own word and send Miller a lying date-setting message ? Was His anger kindled against those who believed the Bible and did not accept this lying message?
But then that admits that Miller was setting a time. And Ellen says God tested people BY his message. That message included the time.
You only have two choices here Jim. Either Ellen lied and the message was not from heaven, or it was more than just a misinterpretation by man.
She said the message was from heaven. She said God was IN THE PREACHING OF THE TIME.
Therefore you need to read what is actually said and stop calling it a mistake. She says it was God's doing, not just a human blunder.
Read Ellen again. She said it was God's doing, that He was behind the preaching of the time, and that it was a heavenly message used to test.
I am showing that Ellen invalidates her own testimony by blaming God for Miller's mistakes. I am showing that Ellen would not apply her own advice to Miller regarding time setting. If she did not make an outrageous claim that God was at fault for their mistakes then there would be no "hay" to make.
Now if the Scriptures tell us to beware false prophets then tell me why I should not look at the statements of EGW to see if they measure up?
When you say "a time" are you saying setting a date? Because it was that very thing that she latter said was a test for the children of God for this event but never again afterwards. In one of the sites on D.J's thread the author offered a valid statement concerning revealed truth. He said God gives us what we can handle at the time and does not force an interpretation on us. Miller's message was primarily one of salvation not just of the second advent and a set time. It was this saving , gospel message, that God was behind and supported. Miller never had all of his theology right but I can see where God was leading him in his study.
And in the context she also says a lot of other things that primarily have to do with salvation and getting the masses ready for the coming of the Lord. Working thru fallible mankind to achieve an infallible result often takes us down paths that seem wrong but God is in control of it all anyway. Your main goal here is to invalidate EGW and adventism in general. To me what you need to do is to show Biblically the IJ is invalid and there will be no need to invalidate EGW. You have not shown the IJ to be invalid yet or even the day for a year principle for that matter.
So instead of posting the evidence where you say I am taking out of context here you make some personal comments about my motives.After reading the sites on D.J.'s thread I can see where a lot of the context of what she really included was left out of your quotes. You don't want to be guilty of doing what you are accusing the sda church of and that is taking things out of context., BTW, your accusations of things being taken out of context like Isa 66:22-23 or in Mark where Christ says the Sabbath was made for man is not legitimate at all.
God Bless
Jim Larmore
Jim, it was the time that folks objected to and which made any other message pointless. He violated the Scriptural admonition that no one knows the day or hour and was dismissed. Yet Ellen says that those who upheld the Bible were judged . It makes no sense at all.
My main goal is to look at the doctrine and it is based on historically poor foundations. Ellen said that Miller was right when he was not. She said God tested based on the wrong message that he gave.
In any case most of my discussions on the topic of the IJ happen elsewhere these days. If you want to see them let me know. But EGW and Miller are CENTRAL to the Adventist doctrine. There would be no doctrine without them. So no, we can't ignore them, even if you would rather.
So instead of posting the evidence where you say I am taking out of context here you make some personal comments about my motives.
Should I expect another speech about ex-ministers in country bars drinking diet Coke and line dancing?
The evidence of you taking EGW out of context is already posted in D.J.'s thread . I was merely commenting on it. I can cut and paste it here if you want.
As far as the line dancing you brought that up not me.
I sincerely pray that you and your family don't experience that. What I do know is the slippery slope phenomenon is well known and established in humanity. What I witnessed in you personally was someone who went from being a loved pastor in an sda church to someone who uses spurious Biblical evidence to denounce/question Sabbath observance. I also witnessed someone whose posts were loving and kind to one whose posts were sharp and unkind at times. That is what I would call a slide down a slope.
God Bless
Jim Larmore
I also witnessed someone whose posts were loving and kind to one whose posts were sharp and unkind at times. That is what I would call a slide down a slope.
I have asked several times that if folks feel there is something that relates to my question to put it here.
No, you clearly posted the story and related it as a possible outcome for formers.
More personal slams. Nevermind that the only ones who feel that way are the ones who don't like my take on theology. Those in GT thought I was "harsh" when I debated for Adventist views. Go figure.
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