Devolutionism

Pacigoth13 · Dec 2, 2003

Actually, there is a different theory of how to synthesise the scientific data claiming "evolutionary processes" and "natural selection" with the belief that God created--it is called Devolutionism.

The theory works something like this. Things were perfect, and then sin corrupted and is the causing agent of apparent evolutionary changes.

Humans were made to live forever, sin brought us death. We used to live hundreds of years, but we have been devolving into what we are today. So has all of creation. The common cat is a devolutionised form of the wild animal it once was. Initial creation was good. Devolved creation is corrupt.

Scientists are right, there is natural selection, there is "evolution". But we are wrong, it is not for the betterment and advance of species. It is the opposite. Scientists will wax on until they are blue in the face about chromosomes and adaptions and alleles and the sort. Thats what they are right about. But their application of the data is wrong. Furthermore, a species adapting for its self preservation is not a good thing and would not be happening without sin. It is because of sin these things become necessary--it is the response of nature to sin that causes it to change in the ways that it does.

We screwed ourselves and took the rest of creation with us...

"with you I stand in hope that God will save us from ourselves"
--Ronan Harris, VNV Nation, Genesis.

Chi_Cygni · Dec 2, 2003

Well that seems like a cr*p theory.

Late_Cretaceous · Dec 2, 2003

The theory of evolution has nothing to do with betterment or advancement. Evolution is not progress. These are human terms, human concepts. They have no place in biology. Biological evolution is simply change. An earthworm or amoeba today is the product of 3.8 billion years of evolution, the same as a man.

There is no such thing as devolution.

Bushido216 · Dec 2, 2003

You really think that humans used to be hundreds of years old?

Pacigoth13 · Dec 3, 2003

Yes, I really think humans used to live for 900+ years. I also think creation used to exist in harmony and used to be good.

And I still believe in devolution, I am a process theologian in reverse.

Ark Guy · Dec 3, 2003

Pacigoth13, deevolution, or even entropy seem to be a result of the fall of man.

Romans 8: 19-22 talks a little bit about it.

Yes it is also possible to believe that man had lived these long lives. In fact the Theo-Evos will present no real reason to disagree with the long life spans other than a mocking remark.

When you thin about it Adam and Eve were created in pretty good shape by God. No cancers, no diseases, not deformities to be passed along to their kids.

As time went on after the fall of mankind in the garden these life shortning elements began to creep into mans genes and get passed along.

Other interesting points is that just after the fllood the life spans of humans were just about cut in half. Perhaps this occured because our atmosphere had changed allowing more radiation to enter into the words eco-systems shortening our life spans.

There is a lot to say on this topic, but it appears you're on the right track. De-Evolution is occuring.

seebs · Dec 3, 2003

There are a number of reasons to doubt long lifespans, one of which is that teeth don't last that long.

Bushido216 · Dec 3, 2003

Ark Guy said:
Pacigoth13, deevolution, or even entropy seem to be a result of the fall of man.

Romans 8: 19-22 talks a little bit about it.

Yes it is also possible to believe that man had lived these long lives. In fact the Theo-Evos will present no real reason to disagree with the long life spans other than a mocking remark.

When you thin about it Adam and Eve were created in pretty good shape by God. No cancers, no diseases, not deformities to be passed along to their kids.

As time went on after the fall of mankind in the garden these life shortning elements began to creep into mans genes and get passed along.

Other interesting points is that just after the fllood the life spans of humans were just about cut in half. Perhaps this occured because our atmosphere had changed allowing more radiation to enter into the words eco-systems shortening our life spans.

There is a lot to say on this topic, but it appears you're on the right track. De-Evolution is occuring.

You do realize that it is biologically impossible to live that long, right? Cells from key body parts stop reproducing and you wear out. Ever hear of apoptosis?

Ark Guy · Dec 3, 2003

seebs said:
There are a number of reasons to doubt long lifespans, one of which is that teeth don't last that long.

That would depend upon what you ate.

Ark Guy · Dec 3, 2003

Bushido216 said:
You do realize that it is biologically impossible to live that long, right? Cells from key body parts stop reproducing and you wear out. Ever hear of apoptosis?

Ever think to ask the question as to why they stop reproducing?
What changed?

Pacigoth13 · Dec 3, 2003

Clarification...

it is impossible for our bodies they way they are now, with our diseases, with our teeth, with cell death, etc. etc.

Devolution means things were not always this way. we devolved to have diseases, we devolved to have inferior cells, teeth, parts, etc.

Likewise, creation devolved. The dinosaurs devolved into lower forms of creation, so has everything else. This is evolution in reverse, changes and adaptations because of existential estrangement, because the chakra is red because we are killing ourselves off at an increasingly faster rate.

The only good argument for an imminent "end of the world" is one we bring upon ourselves.

The earth is very old. God made it and preserved it over billions of years, carefully designing everything and perhaps even using the evolutionary process. But sin and existential estrangement changes everything.

Humanity has taken a short time to ruin what was good for a long time. It is God who will renew the earth, not us.

Ark Guy · Dec 3, 2003

The earth is very old. God made it and preserved it over billions of years, carefully designing everything and perhaps even using the evolutionary process. But sin and existential estrangement changes everything.

This is not what the bible teaches, nor what the early Christians believed.

Pacigoth13 · Dec 3, 2003

*laughs* um, ok, ever read Augustine's commentary on Genesis? He could not become a Christian until he accepted a non-literal approach to the creation stories.

Then there is the Hebrew word 'yom' which does not mean day, rather an unknown amount of time.

Then there is the part at the beginning of Hebrews, 'in the last days God has sent his son'. If there were 6,000 yrs before Christ and 2,000+ after Christ--then the son was hardly sent in the 'last days'. But, if the world is billions of years old--then the last 2000 or 3000 or 4000 for that matter could be considered to be the "last days".

plus, science may not be able to prove naturalism, but has proven an old earth date... and all truth is God's truth.

so, I tend to disagree... I think the Bible does teach an old earth view and I think early Christians believed as such (like Augustine and Aquinas).

Ark Guy · Dec 3, 2003

Perhaps I should be laughing at YOU!

The word YOM is bracketed with morning and evening...which just so happenn to be words that are assigned to a 24 hour time period. They are two words that help define just what a day (YOM) is in this particular situation.
ALSO, to confirm my point, check out the 10 commandments. Once again the word day is used in describing the creation period and a 24 hour long meaning is used.

Sorry Pacigoth13, but your scenario avoids the simple reading of Genesis and exchanges it for something more complicated that requires someone else with extra knowledge to even begin to put some sort of meaniing to it.

Simple hermenuitics is all that you need to understand the days....not evolutionISM

Ark Guy · Dec 3, 2003

Ever read Barnabus's book?

Certainly you know of Barny. He's mentioned through out the NT with Paul.

Well good old Barny taught a six day creation...with a seventh day of rest.

Need proof?

Karl - Liberal Backslider · Dec 4, 2003

Ark Guy said:
Yes it is also possible to believe that man had lived these long lives. In fact the Theo-Evos will present no real reason to disagree with the long life spans other than a mocking remark.

You wish. Actually, what we will present is the simple fact that average lifespans have increased throughout recorded history.

Bushido216 · Dec 5, 2003

Pacigoth13 said:
Clarification...

it is impossible for our bodies they way they are now, with our diseases, with our teeth, with cell death, etc. etc.

Devolution means things were not always this way. we devolved to have diseases, we devolved to have inferior cells, teeth, parts, etc.

Likewise, creation devolved. The dinosaurs devolved into lower forms of creation, so has everything else. This is evolution in reverse, changes and adaptations because of existential estrangement, because the chakra is red because we are killing ourselves off at an increasingly faster rate.

The only good argument for an imminent "end of the world" is one we bring upon ourselves.

The earth is very old. God made it and preserved it over billions of years, carefully designing everything and perhaps even using the evolutionary process. But sin and existential estrangement changes everything.

Humanity has taken a short time to ruin what was good for a long time. It is God who will renew the earth, not us.

Oh, prove this, please! I'm begging.

Why do cells die? What changed? Nothing you fools! The reason why cells die is because the telomeres at the end of chromosomes get too short, and any more replications would cause damage to chromosomes and bad cells, like the kind we get in cancer. Cell-death is an example of evolution. What are telomeres? Bits of useless D.N.A. that protect the ends of chromosomes during cell replication. After each replication, they get shorter and shorter. So, when the cell recognizes that its telomeres are too short, it dies.

Why do we have telomeres? To protect the chromosomes. Imagine if you lost a piece of genetic material every time your cells replicated? This is an example evolution in progress, the protection of our genetic material.

notto · Dec 5, 2003

Bushido216 said:
Why do cells die? What changed? Nothing you fools! The reason why cells die is because the telomeres at the end of chromosomes get too short, and any more replications would cause damage to chromosomes and bad cells, like the kind we get in cancer.

Not sure if you've seen this but you might find it interesting. I came across it while reading up on the evolution of sexual reproduction.

The coevolution of cell senescence and diploid sexual reproduction in unicellular organisms
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=16239

Bushido216 · Dec 5, 2003

Heh, I'm in HS, do you think I really look around the internet for science?

Crusadar · Dec 5, 2003

Late_Cretaceous said:
There is no such thing as devolution.

Nor evolution for that matter.

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