Devil's Advocate?

BillyWheaton · Feb 21, 2006

I'm not a "born-again" Christian anymore for a variety of reasons. But one that fascinates me the most has to do with role play.

Basically, in almost anything in life, one can often find new aspects to something or new ways of defending something by playing Devil's Advocate. For example, a lawyer may find good ways to defend his client by acting ad if he is a the prosecuter in the same case.

I have NEVER Ever met a Christian willing to take the other side in an apologetics discussion.

Why is that do you think?

The answer, "why, I know I'm right" is the most popular. This one baffles me because if it were true, you should be able to persuade the rest of us.

Remember, this is a question to Christians - so please no "well when the Spirit touches your heart you'll be able to 'receive' His message." If you don't know a reason why Christians wont do this then please dont reply!

Sketcher · Feb 21, 2006

Well, in short we don't do that because that would mean blasphemy and heresey.

Now, there are some believers that say "If this were true, then that would be the consequence" when whatever "this" is something that we know is not true. C.S. Lewis explored other worldviews like that. It was a long and roundabout way of refuting them, and I don't think he believed them once he was a Christian. So it's fine for us to consider other points of view and ask questions, as we will eventually get the right answer and be stronger in our faith once we've fought through that. Our beliefs will be generally the same, only stronger and more educated.

Chief117 · Feb 21, 2006

Well, I cannot speak for others, but I will tell you why I wouldn't do it.

It primarily boils down to the fact that I was not always a Christian. I've spent my time playing devil's advocate--and time after time God has won over my mind and my heart.

He has changed me, and now I no longer want to play devil's advocate.

I am haunted by a memory of a game that I played as a teenager. We were re-enacting the situation of early Christians in the catacombs. All the kids were Christians, and had to get to an unspecified location within the building where there was a "secret" Church service. However, the building was full of adults playing "Roman soldiers." They killed you if you were caught. However, some of them were Christians in disguise.

I am haunted of the memory of denying Christ (for the purpose of the game) to avoid "death." I will never do it again. I will never deny God again--I will follow Him to death.

Therefore, I will let man decide whether or not is better for me to follow God. I will never play the other side again.

tapero · Feb 21, 2006

I'm sure you've read C.S. Lewis Screwtape Letters talk about playing devils advocate. tapero

BillyWheaton · Feb 22, 2006

Chief117 said:
I am haunted by a memory of a game that I played as a teenager. We were re-enacting the situation of early Christians in the catacombs. All the kids were Christians, and had to get to an unspecified location within the building where there was a "secret" Church service. However, the building was full of adults playing "Roman soldiers." They killed you if you were caught. However, some of them were Christians in disguise.

I am haunted of the memory of denying Christ (for the purpose of the game) to avoid "death." I will never do it again. I will never deny God again--I will follow Him to death.

sounds creapy--who thought up this "game" if it was the adults, it seems to me to be abusive!? No wonder you're haunted. I'm sorry to bring up old wounds.

Sketcher · Feb 22, 2006

BillyWheaton said:
Chief117 said:

I am haunted by a memory of a game that I played as a teenager. We were re-enacting the situation of early Christians in the catacombs. All the kids were Christians, and had to get to an unspecified location within the building where there was a "secret" Church service. However, the building was full of adults playing "Roman soldiers." They killed you if you were caught. However, some of them were Christians in disguise.

I am haunted of the memory of denying Christ (for the purpose of the game) to avoid "death." I will never do it again. I will never deny God again--I will follow Him to death.

Click to expand...

sounds creapy--who thought up this "game" if it was the adults, it seems to me to be abusive!? No wonder you're haunted. I'm sorry to bring up old wounds.

It's not an abusive game, it's meant to be a teaching tool. I played a similar game (on the Christian side). Granted, I was much older.

LilLamb219 · Feb 22, 2006

Basically, in almost anything in life, one can often find new aspects to something or new ways of defending something by playing Devil's Advocate. For example, a lawyer may find good ways to defend his client by acting ad if he is a the prosecuter in the same case.

I have NEVER Ever met a Christian willing to take the other side in an apologetics discussion.

Why is that do you think?

I suppose that in some Bible studies you have a pastor or a participant who uses questioning (somewhat of a devil's advocate type role in how they phrase their questions) in order to get the group to study scriptures and find the truthful answer. I've experienced that type of situation and even though it's somewhat different than what you're suggesting here in this thread, it's really not too different if you think about it.

I don't think that Christians should pretend that they agree with the other side if it goes against truth. But they can learn how to effectively question those around them in order to help other Christians learn.

Rafael · Feb 22, 2006

Each person who is a true Christian has two natures within them, and the devil never stops trying to influence the old nature of this mortal flesh, sometimes called the "old man" that is heir to death and corruption. The new nature is of God and battles the old, so playing the role of devils advocate is an on-going battle in a real way, as we are never completely free of this fight, where the old nature is prone to play the role of the devils advocate, until we see the Lord and receive our new incorruptible bodies.

Galations 5: 17 The old sinful nature loves to do evil, which is just opposite from what the Holy Spirit wants. And the Spirit gives us desires that are opposite from what the sinful nature desires. These two forces are constantly fighting each other, and your choices are never free from this conflict.

muaxiong · Feb 22, 2006

BillyWheaton said:
I'm not a "born-again" Christian anymore for a variety of reasons. But one that fascinates me the most has to do with role play.

Just out of curiousity what have you become?

muaxiong · Feb 22, 2006

BillyWheaton said:
I have NEVER Ever met a Christian willing to take the other side in an apologetics discussion.

Because then I would be breaking the 8th commandment: "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."

AwesomeMachine · Feb 23, 2006

BillyWheaton said:
I'm not a "born-again" Christian anymore for a variety of reasons. But one that fascinates me the most has to do with role play.

Basically, in almost anything in life, one can often find new aspects to something or new ways of defending something by playing Devil's Advocate. For example, a lawyer may find good ways to defend his client by acting ad if he is a the prosecuter in the same case.

I have NEVER Ever met a Christian willing to take the other side in an apologetics discussion.

Why is that do you think?

The answer, "why, I know I'm right" is the most popular. This one baffles me because if it were true, you should be able to persuade the rest of us.

Remember, this is a question to Christians - so please no "well when the Spirit touches your heart you'll be able to 'receive' His message." If you don't know a reason why Christians wont do this then please dont reply!

We are all God's children. No one can actually play devil's advocate. No one is that evil. The devil's side of things goes something like this:

Satan is a psychopathic criminal and scorned adulteress, opposed to anything that is of God, who steals souls away through deceit and psychopathic violence, thereby bringing upon mankind a condition where the people have no souls, and they will savagely attack and kill each other, without restraint, until there is only one person left. Suicide, homicide, abortion, cannibalism, human sacrifice, use of artificial birth control, masturbation, sodomy, feminism, starvation, and disease are all symptoms of a disease which infects mankind. It is mankind committing genocide against itself because mankind is the only thing in the universe that doesn't perfectly do the will of God. This causes all the forces in the universe to bring mankind back into alignment with The Supreme, Divine Justice God imprinted on Creation. Mankind will either be brought into alignment with God's immutable and perfect Will, or the universe will destroy mankind trying to bring it back into alignment with the Immutable and Supreme Justice God stamped on the universe when He created it. All things must do the Will of their Creator, or be forgiven. The only other alternative is complete annihilation.

So, I can either take the side of "We should do the will of God", or "Annihilation of the human race totally, from all existence, eternally; is good". Now why do you think Christians will only choose one side of that? I think everyone is on the same side. The devil wants to kill, by severe, slow, and brutal torture, every last trace of God's children. Why do you think no one will take the devil's side, just for the sake of argument? Why don't you take the side that every man, woman, and child should be tortured to death for all eternity.

Calminian · Feb 23, 2006

BillyWheaton said:
I'm not a "born-again" Christian anymore for a variety of reasons. But one that fascinates me the most has to do with role play.

Basically, in almost anything in life, one can often find new aspects to something or new ways of defending something by playing Devil's Advocate. For example, a lawyer may find good ways to defend his client by acting ad if he is a the prosecuter in the same case.

I have NEVER Ever met a Christian willing to take the other side in an apologetics discussion.

Why is that do you think?

The answer, "why, I know I'm right" is the most popular. This one baffles me because if it were true, you should be able to persuade the rest of us.

Remember, this is a question to Christians - so please no "well when the Spirit touches your heart you'll be able to 'receive' His message." If you don't know a reason why Christians wont do this then please dont reply!

I actually like playing DA. It's a way I can sharpen other christian's and help them work through issues. Not sure why other christians think it's somehow wrong. Seminary professors do it all the time. So I guess that makes me the first you've even met! Cool!

BillyWheaton · Feb 23, 2006

Calminian said:
I actually like playing DA. It's a way I can sharpen other christian's and help them work through issues. Not sure why other christians think it's somehow wrong. Seminary professors do it all the time. So I guess that makes me the first you've even met! Cool!

cool if you ever debate and take non-christian side, id love to see, watch, eaves drop or even be CHRISTIAN side of debate!

BillyWheaton · Feb 23, 2006

AwesomeMachine said:
We are all God's children. No one can actually play devil's advocate. No one is that evil. The devil's side of things goes something like this:

So, I can either take the side of "We should do the will of God", or "Annihilation of the human race totally, from all existence, eternally; is good". Now why do you think Christians will only choose one side of that? I think everyone is on the same side. The devil wants to kill, by severe, slow, and brutal torture, every last trace of God's children. Why do you think no one will take the devil's side, just for the sake of argument? Why don't you take the side that every man, woman, and child should be tortured to death for all eternity.

This response typifies why as an ex-christian I use an alias. This is very scary too me. How have you let such horrible evil thoughts about other human beings creep into your head?

BillyWheaton · Feb 23, 2006

muaxiong said:
Because then I would be breaking the 8th commandment: "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."

So then, you could never be a lawyer Or a scientist who ever came up with a hypothesis. I hope you have purged all "theories" from your vocabulary as they not positively proven may be shown to be "false" some day. I think if you start with "im going to aggresively take a position that is currntly counter to my own," you are probably off the 8th commandment hot seat.

BillyWheaton · Feb 23, 2006

muaxiong said:
Just out of curiousity what have you become?

Im a truth seeker. The Bible simple did not hold up under scrutiny. And, remarkably, most of my old Christian friends could not care less! They have little to no interest in persuing a line of reasoning beyond a few sentences. I have become more knowledgeable as time goes by. And, a little stupider. On ash wed one year I gave up christianity for lent- never felt I had any other morally and ethically sound choice.

BillyWheaton · Feb 23, 2006

Rafael said:
Each person who is a true Christian has two natures within them, and the devil never stops trying to influence the old nature of this mortal flesh, sometimes called the "old man"

My old man is always taking the opposite side of ME! He does it on purpose.

Seriously, I do not know one atheist who "loves to do evil" all the pot smokin' drinkin' sexually excessive people I know claim they are Christians-- jus watch gangsta rappers interviewed, they all claim to be Christians-- yet reading these responses, one would believe that someone like me who came to reject the claims that EVAngelicals (not God mind You) make about the Bible through countless hours of study and reflection are the evilest most wickedest of all. Like were waiting to corrupt your small children and show them how to use a bong and sleep with lots and lots of people at the bar even if they ar the same sex.

Nothing could be farther from the truth.

BillyWheaton · Feb 23, 2006

LilLamb219 said:
I suppose that in some Bible studies you have a pastor or a participant who uses questioning (somewhat of a devil's advocate type role in how they phrase their questions) in order to get the group to study scriptures and find the truthful answer. I've experienced that type of situation and even though it's somewhat different than what you're suggesting here in this thread, it's really not too different if you think about it.

I don't think that Christians should pretend that they agree with the other side if it goes against truth. But they can learn how to effectively question those around them in order to help other Christians learn.

I don't agree,
so Christians then should always take the side of the non-Christian? After all, the Christian side does not stand up to scrutiny very well. But, if you ever took the non-christian side you would already know that!

LilLamb219 · Feb 23, 2006

After all, the Christian side does not stand up to scrutiny very well.

You think that only because you lack faith.

Rafael · Feb 23, 2006

BillyWheaton said:
My old man is always taking the opposite side of ME! He does it on purpose.

Seriously, I do not know one atheist who "loves to do evil" all the pot smokin' drinkin' sexually excessive people I know claim they are Christians-- jus watch gangsta rappers interviewed, they all claim to be Christians-- yet reading these responses, one would believe that someone like me who came to reject the claims that EVAngelicals (not God mind You) make about the Bible through countless hours of study and reflection are the evilest most wickedest of all. Like were waiting to corrupt your small children and show them how to use a bong and sleep with lots and lots of people at the bar even if they ar the same sex.

Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Jesus said that there would be wolves in sheeps clothing, but you have narrowed your vision to make all Christians like the evil ones who call themselves by His name in vain. Just saying what is right isn't the same as doing it.
I don't remember saying your out to corrupt my children or calling you any kind of evil??? It looks like you really seek an excuse more than the truth, and if one person offends you, then that is enough to claim there is no truth in the God who came in the flesh and died for the sins of all mankind as an act of love. He calls us to learn how to give of ourselves, too.
If you can judge all Christians in such a way, all in the same pot, can you stand up to the measure of love Jesus showed us and make your life one that gives all of self for the benefit of others? It isn't an easy calling, for sure, but it is a goal that the true Chritian presses forward for. Pot smoking, etc,; been there, done that, but one learns just how selfish these things are in the big picture, and that life just for "self" is not what we were created for. We are here to learn what true love is:

I JOHN 3:16-19 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with ACTIONS and TRUTH. This then is how we KNOW that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence whenever our hearts condemn us.

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