Determinism

SeventhValley · Jun 29, 2014

If God exist then all things are predetermined since God knows all.

If God dose not exist then the universe is just a bunch of predetermined billiard balls knocking around in a pattern set since the big bang(maybe even before?).

So how do you come to terms with the fact that you are not in control of your life or even your emotions? If you meditate to feel better then you were predetermined to meditate. If you are depressed and cannot meditate then you are predetermined to not mediate.

I was predetermined to make this post since the Big Bang.

Everything seems rather absurd in that way.

1watchman · Jun 29, 2014

Certainly natural mankind is not in control of much --it will either be Satan or God. It is not a matter of "pre-determined", but our all-knowing (omniscient) God knows the end from the beginning. He knows who will bow to Him and receive His salvation and His immutable Word. Sin is a fact; Satan is a fact; Our self-indulgent flesh is a fact; the Word of God is fact.

It sounds like Satan is working on you to dissuade you from believing and trusting what God has said. Have you considered God's "...so great salvation" in His beloved Son? See John 1; John 3; John 14, then pray to God to reveal His truth to you.

One has rightly said: "A seeking sinner and a seeking Savior will always meet". Are you a true seeker? Read the Word of God in the Gospels and in the Book of Romans and pray MUCH, yielding to God in real faith! A new life in Christ is all about having Jesus, the Christ of God in your heart and being devoted to Him.

KnowtheSilence · Jun 29, 2014

To me (a compatabilist, by the way), the idea of libertarian free will is even more absurd and disturbing. What would it mean for there to be a "me" that can somehow peel itself away from my desires, emotions, etc., and make decisions, and to be able to do it by somehow stepping outside of the chain of causality? What is this thing and how is it acting? I can't wrap my head around that.

SeventhValley · Jun 29, 2014

I don't think compatibilist exists(my opinion) ultimately "we" have no motivation of our own as that would take libertarian free will. So compatabilism(in my opinion others disagree) collapses down to Hard Determinism. So as far as I see it only libertarian free will or Hard Determinism exists. As of yet I have seen no evidence for libertarian free will.

awitch · Jun 29, 2014

SeventhValley said:
If God exist then all things are predetermined since God knows all.

Only if you think god is omniscient.
I personally don't subscribe to that idea.

If God dose not exist then the universe is just a bunch of predetermined billiard balls knocking around in a pattern set since the big bang(maybe even before?).

I don't think it's predetermined. There's a bit of randomness to the mix.

So how do you come to terms with the fact that you are not in control of your life or even your emotions?

I believe my emotions are my own and I am ultimately responsible for my actions.

If you meditate to feel better then you were predetermined to meditate. If you are depressed and cannot meditate then you are predetermined to not mediate.

I guess the same can be asked about prayer.

dcalling · Jun 29, 2014

SeventhValley said:
If God exist then all things are predetermined since God knows all.

If God dose not exist then the universe is just a bunch of predetermined billiard balls knocking around in a pattern set since the big bang(maybe even before?).

I am not sure if God knows all, is there a bible passage says that?
I do know God is powerful enough to get things done.

And if God doesn't exist, then the universe is per-determined as you said. I also got the same conclusion when I was an atheist.

SeventhValley said:
So how do you come to terms with the fact that you are not in control of your life or even your emotions? If you meditate to feel better then you were predetermined to meditate. If you are depressed and cannot meditate then you are predetermined to not mediate.

I was predetermined to make this post since the Big Bang.

Everything seems rather absurd in that way.

Here is my current theory. Our spirit have free will (since it is not chemicals/physics), God determines final outcome, not individual actions.

And no matter God exists or not, your actions have a huge impact on your life.

SeventhValley · Jun 29, 2014

awitch said:
Only if you think god is omniscient.
I personally don't subscribe to that idea.

I don't think it's predetermined. There's a bit of randomness to the mix.

I believe my emotions are my own and I am ultimately responsible for my actions.

I guess the same can be asked about prayer.

Yea I don't pray for that reason. How do you think our emotions are our own? Emotions are just chemical reactions(at least from what I know a I could be wrong).

AskTheFamily · Jun 29, 2014

So we all understand the brain that much to say it's deterministic? I don't think people have that knowledge of the brain to make that conclusion.

awitch · Jun 29, 2014

SeventhValley said:
Yea I don't pray for that reason. How do you think our emotions are our own? Emotions are just chemical reactions(at least from what I know a I could be wrong).

Our emotions are may be influenced by external stimulus (music, interactions with other people, etc) but they arise from our psychology, biology, and our personality; things that are unique for each individual in a given space and time. In that sense, they are our own.

SeventhValley · Jun 29, 2014

Internal is still set up by DNA before we are born though....

Maybe ignorance is bliss in this area lol

dcalling · Jun 29, 2014

awitch said:
Our emotions are may be influenced by external stimulus (music, interactions with other people, etc) but they arise from our psychology, biology, and our personality; things that are unique for each individual in a given space and time. In that sense, they are our own.

In my mind we are non-deterministic because of our spirit. Our brain alone is just a computer, and is deterministic.

AskTheFamily · Jun 29, 2014

dcalling said:
Our brain alone is just a computer, and is deterministic.

How do you know that?

ViaCrucis · Jun 29, 2014

If God is like a seer who, in a moment in time peers into the abyss of to foresee the future, then we could speak of all things as predetermined and God having predetermined it all.

But that all assumes a temporally-bounded deity acting like an omniscient seer.

At least in Christianity God is understood as atemporal, outside of time. God is not foreseeing events as one looking ahead, God is rather one looking within His now, and events are seen.

Let's put it this way, if I observe you walk across the road as you do it, have I predetermined that you would walk across the road? Of course not, I observed that you did it as you did it.

Likewise God's atemporality means that all moments in time occur in His eternal "now". God isn't predetermining you to walk across the road simply because He knows you do it when and as you do it.

-CryptoLutheran

dcalling · Jun 29, 2014

AskTheFamily said:
How do you know that?

There are two type of things, the things that belong to this world, which follow all the laws of physics of the world, everything in this world is deterministic, i.e. how objects interact together. Our brain is no difference, just electrics and chemicals, act like a computer.

The things that belong to the spirit, are where true randomness come from, it can't be determined by the objects in this world (it can be affected by it, so a impaired brain is harder for the spirit to control).

Johnnz · Jun 29, 2014

SeventhValley said:
If God exist then all things are predetermined since God knows all.

Neither premise is accurate. All things are not predetermined. God' so overal purposes are in that they will happen when and by whatever means God chooses at the time. This forms the concept of God's sovereignty, but not predetermination.

If God dose not exist then the universe is just a bunch of predetermined billiard balls knocking around in a pattern set since the big bang(maybe even before?).

Not quite, but some kind of determinism is implicit in a world composed only of 'natural laws'.

So how do you come to terms with the fact that you are not in control of your life or even your emotions? If you meditate to feel better then you were predetermined to meditate. If you are depressed and cannot meditate then you are predetermined to not mediate.

If the above does not hold then this question no longer applies.

I was predetermined to make this post since the Big Bang.

But you wouldn't know that in any real sense since your thought is just another predetermined phenomenon, as are all your thoughts. But you can never really know that!

Everything seems rather absurd in that way.

Yes it does, which is why I don't believe in some vast cosmic blueprint.

John
NZ

BaconWizard · Jun 30, 2014

Spirit? What spirit? How does one measure a spirit?

We can chemically or electrically, directly influence someone's decision via the brain, suggesting that the brain's activity is responsible for decision-making.

We can cause all brain activity to cease for 20 mins by hypercooling and revive, with no change.

Out of body experiences have been proven to be hallucination.

I can't DISprove a spirit or soul, but if you are gonna talk about the effects of having one, you need to be able to demonstrate it.

Jane_the_Bane · Jun 30, 2014

The notion of a Newtonian clockwork universe has been pretty much dead since the advent of quantum physics.

I do think that we are not nearly as free in our choices and actions as we think we are (and regard "free will" as an oxymoron), but determinism has been off the table for more than a century.

BruceDLimber · Jun 30, 2014

SeventhValley said:
If God exist then all things are predetermined since God knows all.

Sure God knows all, but He also created us with free will!

And that means that even if He knows the outcome, we often don't, and ourselves determine a large part of it through our own decisions.

(Indeed, I take being "made in the image of God" to mean that in this life, we have that free will.)

So I have no problem living life, making my decisions, and living with their results....

Peace,

Bruce

BaconWizard · Jun 30, 2014

The current scientific thinking, with much to suggest it (but which remains a hypothesis only) is that our consciousness "bubbles-up" from our subconsciousness.. an effect rather than the cause of decision-making, after the fact.

I tend to think of our minds as being much like the weather, a mathematically chaotic, highly complex system that follows rules but which nevertheless cannot be accurately predicted except in broad strokes, with so much varied input and feedback loops.

SeventhValley · Jun 30, 2014

Jane_the_Bane said:
The notion of a Newtonian clockwork universe has been pretty much dead since the advent of quantum physics.

I do think that we are not nearly as free in our choices and actions as we think we are (and regard "free will" as an oxymoron), but determinism has been off the table for more than a century.

A quantum clock is more precise than a mechanical clock .

I think saying determinism is dead is inncorrect. Just because we lack knowledge of the quantum world dose not mean it is random. Even if it was the end result of random billiard balls bouncing around is still determined beforehand by the natural physics of the universe, and we cannot change that.

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