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I never stated that creation was science, you see I am actually willing to admit when my belief system cannot account for something. I don't need to understand it all, I am quite willing to progress through my life without the pretense of knowing everything. I am satisfied just learning.So, your rejection of evolution is based on your faith, rather than any unknown details about horse evolution. Why don't you tell us precisely how your god created the modern horse and all the intermediates found in the fossil record.
Why would I show you any sources since you can't do what I asked? I asked you to show me why my idea of nucleotide shielding should be wrong and you refused, so now you expect me to do something for you? I asked for anyone to show me some evidence of what occurs on the molecular level for evolution and noone did yet now you want more information. I spent lots of time yesterday explaining the simplest thing to one of your evo cronies and in the end he still didn't get it, I posted a reference for Pete Harcoff and he immediately made a personal attack against him. Basically Im tired of giving to you people in this thread and receiving nothing in return.By the way, have you dug up the evidence I asked for that proves population geneticists lied about what a gene pool is? Being a member of the "science community" as you are, I am sure you would never make baseless accusations about the integrity of other scientists.
Actually precision is not impossible at all in the quantum model, accuracy is. Although if you knew anything about science you would know the difference between precision and accuracy. We cannot predict where an atom is with any amount of accuracy, but we can create precise mathematical models, the orbitals, which shows us reliable probabilities about where a given electron might be.I was merely pointing out that HUP (which is capitalized, by the way) says that precision is impossible. Practically applied it only has real significance at the 'quantum level' but it does give the general maxim that absolute precision in measurements is not possible.
Based upon probability distribution maps we can determine the electron configurations of elements which in turn give us dead certainty when predicting how elements will behave in compounds. No such equivalence exists in macro-evolutionary theory, there is no way to predict what direction evolution will travel, and there is no way to even observe it, if there were I am sure someone would have showed me even an approximation of what occurs on the molecular level.I don't even know what the rest of your post means
Trust me, if I wanted to create a flawless essay I could, and would gladly pit it against yours or anyone here if there was a way to do that. Regardless, picking on my spelling and grammar is completely irrelevant and shows that you don't really have anything tangible to say about my posts. Its pathetic really.Again, it would really help if you could follow the general rules of sentence structure. You have about 3 or 4 phrases in there that could be made into complete sentences, but you smash it all together into one string of words and commas.
I am silly. Yes, very silly. You have no idea.But as for your last point, I can most certainly predict what a hairdresser and a plumber can do. You are a very silly person.
I asked for anyone to show me some evidence of what occurs on the molecular level for evolution and noone did yet now you want more information.
I spent lots of time yesterday explaining the simplest thing to one of your evo cronies and in the end he still didn't get it, I posted a reference for Pete Harcoff and he immediately made a personal attack against him. Basically Im tired of giving to you people in this thread and receiving nothing in return.
I posted a reference for Pete Harcoff and he immediately made a personal attack against him.
The first thing off the bat is a personal attack (ad hominem argument) then they will make a big deal of a minor point to derail the thread.
Creationism is really just an intellectual curiosity, nothing more. They demonize it and I'm not entirely sure why.
Mark, the reason people made a big deal out of your errors is that you act as an authority on genetics (even in the face of real biologists), then made some very basic mistakes. So people called you on it. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge or even deny you made those mistakes in the first place... well, you're not doing yourself any favors.
Because many creationists don't view it as an "intellectual curiosity". They view it as real science. And thus, they continue to attempt to influence public policy (i.e. science education) based on their religion either by marginalizing or eliminating the teaching of evolutionary biology, adding the teaching of pseudoscience, or even changing the very definitions of science (i.e. Kansas).
I was even shocked to learned that my own province has in some ways bowed to the pressure of religious believers in marginalizing the teaching of evolutionary biology in schools. (Of course, in Canada it seems we go out of our ways to not offend people no matter how silly it may be.)
This is one of the reasons I have spent the last couple years focused on applications of evolutionary biology. I was really surprised to see that evolutionary biology including common descent itself has real-world application that is being applied in contemporary industries like pharmaceuticals and agriculture. To me this is a pretty significant thing. Yet, when I attempt to raise the issue to creationists, they generally ignore it or outright deny it. How people can deny this boggles my mind. It's real-world stuff we're talking about!
I can't speak for everyone else, but if creationists would stop trying to influence public policy then I wouldn't care nearly as much about the whole issue. After all, there are plenty of beliefs and practices of individuals that I think are completely off the rocker, but don't bother arguing with them.
Fishface made glaring errors and no one calls him on it. This isn't the first time this has happened, in fact, it's the standard approach you all use. I was once 'called' on over a supposed error where I was supposed to have said a transcript error is a mutation. Technically, an uncorrected transcript error is a mutation but the entire group got on the bandwagon for 5 pages. When I substantiated my statement they simply abandoned the thread.
LM made obvious errors in our debate and I called him on it repeatedly. Not one of these hypercritical evolutionists bothered to correct him. All you have to do to be considered right around here is to attack creationists.
Properly taught biology could focus on how living systems work without the slightest mention of origins. At a time when genetics is growing by leaps and bounds this is all you can find to talk about. It's sad really, you could expunge Darwin and nothing would change except that you wouldn't be brainwashing people into a secular antitheistic worldview.
I have no clue what you are talking about
religion should have nothing to do with this. I rarely quote scripture or even mention God in these discussions. Maybe you don't care about the historicity of scripture but I do and I get sick and tired of seeing my faith ridiculed shamelessly by professional scientists and educator. People who, by the way, are getting paid from our tax dollars. They have no right, it needs to stop.
Baloney! I have never advocated teaching creationism or ID in the public schools and that is irrelevant. The issues I have raised have never been answered and for the most part not even addressed.
Let me ask you think Pete, what would you have the public schools teach? That the evolution of man from apes is a proven fact? It is not and I have done extensive research on the subject.
I have learned a lot about biology and nothing in the life sciences offends my belief system in the slightest. It is evolutionists with an agenda to expunge traditional theology.
We don't claim to know everything about biology. I would love to know how your faith, which relies on substituting "god did it" for "we don't know all the details yet," helps you to learn about the world around you.I never stated that creation was science, you see I am actually willing to admit when my belief system cannot account for something. I don't need to understand it all, I am quite willing to progress through my life without the pretense of knowing everything. I am satisfied just learning.
As I already told you.. you proposed this idea about nucleotide shielding, so you need to provide some evidence for it. Frankly I don't think you are really intersted in any of the answers you claim you want. Why would you need them considering you already know God did it?Why would I show you any sources since you can't do what I asked? I asked you to show me why my idea of nucleotide shielding should be wrong and you refused, so now you expect me to do something for you?
What do you mean none did? I explained all the types of mutation that are involved in evolution, including several you either didn't know about or were ignoring. If you want a detailed summary of all the genetic steps in horse evolution, we cannot give it to you. In fact, the horse genome has not even been sequenced yet.I asked for anyone to show me some evidence of what occurs on the molecular level for evolution and noone did yet now you want more information.
What have you given us? Some terminology you either made up, or changed to your own specifications, a book written by a questionable source, unsubstantiated accusations against geneticists you don't even know, rhetoric about evolution being a religion, and in general some very un-Christian like behavior. I am not impressed.I spent lots of time yesterday explaining the simplest thing to one of your evo cronies and in the end he still didn't get it, I posted a reference for Pete Harcoff and he immediately made a personal attack against him. Basically Im tired of giving to you people in this thread and receiving nothing in return.
I can't speak for all of the mistakes they might have made, but FWIW I have corrected "evolutionists" here in the past (including LM recently).
This still doesn't excuse your own self not admitting rather obvious errors. I mean, you [flat out denied claiming that you equated subsitutions with frameshifts when it was there in black and white and only a handful of posts prior!
You're flat out wrong on this mark. You seem to be equating facets of evolutionary theory you don't like with atheism. But that's not the case at all.
Your real beef seems to be with atheism. Why you insist on dragging evolutionary science is beyond me. It's a fight you can't possibly win because you're fighting it for all the wrong reasons.
I'm talking about applied evolution. Particularly applied evolution in modern genomics fields. If you have any interest in contemporary biology, it would do you good to read up on it. IMHO, it's the single biggest reason evolutionary biology ain't going away.
Now I'm not sure what you are talking about. What do you mean by "faith ridiculed shamelessly by professional scientists and educator"? What does this have to do with teaching or using evolutionary biology? Especially since there are plenty of scientists and educators that profess both the Christian faith and accept modern science (i.e. Ken Miller, Francis Collins).
Not you but others. And the issues you have raised have been answered: "we don't know yet". You just don't like the answer and you seem to equate not knowing something with falsifying something.
You're using loaded language here. What I would teach is that common descent (including for humans) is supported by various lines of evidence and that it is applied in various applications of modern biology. I would also stress that nothing is ever "proven" in science, that conclusions are provisional, and that there is certainly a lot more to learn.
You're fighting the wrong battle, mark. Evolution, including common descent, is a science (an applied science at that) and is not going away just because you don't like the idea that humans share ancestry with other species.
I was not equating substitutions with frameshifts, the idea never occurred to me.
No I'm not, evolution has become essentially atheistic in it's orientation and focus. Anything remotely theistic is ridiculed mindlessly.
There you go again, you want to equate evolution with science. The scientific definition of science is not universal common descent from a common ancestor and you know it.
No directly observed or demonstrated molecular mechanism, no proof. It's as simple as that so you can eat your cake and have it to. On the one hand it can't be proven but must be assumed.
Then there is plenty of room for honest skepticism.
I didn't pick this fight, the evolutionists came after me. I was more interested in the New Testament but strangely these secular academic types simply don't have the slightest interest. Creationism on the other hand generates tons of interest.
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Stuff like gravity and relativity are proven beyond any reasonable doubt (note this is different from proven); unless extraordinary evidence comes out it is bad practice to be skeptical to the point of denying gravity/relativity.
Fishface made glaring errors and no one calls him on it.
This isn't the first time this has happened, in fact, it's the standard approach you all use. I was once 'called' on over a supposed error where I was supposed to have said a transcript error is a mutation. Technically, an uncorrected transcript error is a mutation but the entire group got on the bandwagon for 5 pages. When I substantiated my statement they simply abandoned the thread.
Which mistake?
No, your brain exhibits some similarities to muscle. You can grow more muscle tissue by exercise and you can alter your brain by practice. If what gamespotter said is true, then we could also have increased its size by eating more protein.
I notice you've not responded to me (or Split Rock) where I (and he) pointed out the mistakes (and contradictions) in your posts. There were four of them.
You claimed substitution mutations can cause frameshifts
You claimed that a codon is the same as an amino acid
You mixed up the term "essential amino acids" with the 22 amino acids of life
You asserted that there would have been frameshift mutation(s) in an RNA gene.
You've not responded to this - and you have the audacity to, in the same thread, rail at people for abandoning topics! This is the height of hypocrisy!
Come on, mark, admit your mistakes - they're there for all to see, in this very thread!
This is a fundamental mistake that marks a deep flaw in you thinking. Eating protein and working your brain can never account for the evolution of the human brain from that of apes. It's not only wrong, it's absurd.
I showed you guys a very interesting difference in a regulatory gene. In 400 million years it allowed only 2 substitutions then suddenly there were 18. I tried to show you what had to change and you buried the substantive discussion.
I know the difference between a substitution and a frameshift mutation. This is a frameshift:
You don't know what a triplet codon is do you?
There is a reason certain genes are highly conserved, it's because they give rise to deleterious affects.
Lahn and his team argue that this selective process impacted a significant fraction of genes in the human genome. They estimate there may have been thousands of mutations in thousands of genes that contributed to the evolution of the human brain. This staggering number of mutations suggests the human lineage was driven by intense selection process. (Human cognitive abilities resulted from intense evolutionary selection, says Lahn)
I'm not the one dragging this conversation off topic, now you are resorting to a flame.
You keep trying to make a point of substitutions don't cause frameshifts. What you don't seem to realize is I don't care, it has nothing to do with the subject of Design and the Brain. Clearly vital organs in general and genes involved in neural functions in particular do not respond well to mutations.
Show me a single beneficial effect from a mutation in a brain related gene.
The thing is, I can show you a list of disease and disorder as long as your arm.
Pick a chromosome, any chromosome:
Human Genome Landmarks Poster: Chromosome Viewer
Here are some of the things you will find:
Alzeheimers, Epilepsy, Hunting-like Degeneratetive Disorder and brain tumors. You don't understand how many differences there are on a genetic basis between humans and apes.
Stop claiming you have, and admit your mistakes, please.
Where do you think the amino acids used to synthesize proteins come from? Can you even name the nine essential amino acids?
Sorry; I meant the existence of gravity isn't open for debate, not the exact mechanism by how it works.Actually, there is considerable debate over theories of gravity as is evidenced by the fact that new theories keep popping up and a theory of quantum gravity has yet to be worked out.
However, this highlights another facet of scientific theories: theories are provisional. That is to say, they apply in certain circumstance and understand certain conditions. So Newton's theory of gravity might be fundamentally wrong, but it's useful in the right context.
Mark, when Fishface said "Substitutions do not produce frameshifts" you responded with "yes they do". Why do you continue to deny this? It's in this very thread!
So wait, because there are scientists who don't believe in god, therefore evolution is athiestic? Your logic makes no sense and you seem to have great difficulty separating philosophy from science.
I can't make sense of your second statement, but evolutionary biology including common descent is not only a science, but an applied science. You can pretend otherwise, but that doesn't change reality.
Mark, lemme try this analogy:
I recently took to a trip to New Zealand. Along the way, I documented this trip with copious amounts of photography.
If someone was to look at those series of photos, they could likely deduce the various locations in NZ I visited and probably in what order. They might not know how I traveled between those various locations, but they would know I visited them.
It's the same thing with human/chimp ancestry. Wee have a pretty good idea that it must have happened based on the evidence available (i.e. genetic comparisons, fossils), even if we don't specifically know how it happened.
Make sense?
Right. But I don't know where science is being taught as dogmatically as you suggest it is. In fact, my experience in University science classes is that professors more than not use skeptical language in discussing whatever it is they are talking about.
And what does any of this have to do with evolutionary biology as a science? It still sounds to me like your main problem is with people (specifically atheists) and not evolutionary biology as a science at all.
No, they copulating don't. Substitution = put a different base in place of the original one. Substitution =/= indel.Yes they do but I don't expect you to know what a reading frame is anyhow.
Have any of us ever said it does?Then you should know that diet does not change the genetic code affecting the human brain.
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