Depravity and Assurance of Salvation

BenjaminRandall · Oct 19, 2007

I can appreciate the strong reactions reflected in the above posts, since assurnce has always been sort of a stomping ground for Calvinists.

But in all the discussion, I'm not sure any of you have explained how you know that Christ died for you.

But by all means, let me give you this definite, iron-clad assurance that Jesus died for you: I know that Jesus died for you simply because the Bible says so.

BenjaminRandall · Oct 19, 2007

I wrote,

Calvinists, assuming a low view of the sovereignty of God (!), seem to claim that God couldn't enable a totally depraved person to believe.

Calvinists seem to claim that God couldn't enable a totally depraved person to not resist his grace.

Calvinists seem to claim that God couldn't enable a totally depraved person to cooperate with his grace.

In reply, someone begged, "Where are you coming up with all this? I have never seen a Calvinist claim any such thing. Please post support for your assertions."

I can't tell you how many times Calvinist have told me that it is impossible for a dead, totally depraved, unregenerate person to believe. Well over a hundred times. Need an example? Harold Camping. Or the citation of the Lazarus story.

In contrast, I'm suggesting that God can enable a spiritually dead, totally depraved unregenerate person to believe--and thereby receive the new life in Christ.

Now, I know you Calvinists believe in the sovereignty of God, but whenever you tell me that a spiritually dead, unregenerate person cannot believe, my reply is that God can indeed enable such a person to believe.

And if you disagree with me, if you still insist that God can't do such a thing, it seems as if you have a low view of the sovereignty of God!

heymikey80 · Oct 19, 2007

BenjaminRandall said:
But in all the discussion, I'm not sure any of you have explained how you know that Christ died for you.

But by all means, let me give you this definite, iron-clad assurance that Jesus died for you: I know that Jesus died for you simply because the Bible says so.

So if I find a Bible that says differently, I shouldn't have the assurance you assert?

BenjaminRandall said:
I can't tell you how many times Calvinist have told me that it is impossible for a dead, totally depraved, unregenerate person to believe. Well over a hundred times. Need an example? Harold Camping. Or the citation of the Lazarus story.

In contrast, I'm suggesting that God can enable a spiritually dead, totally depraved unregenerate person to believe--and thereby receive the new life in Christ.

We do too, but by making him alive, not by expecting the dead to do what the Bible (see above) said they can't do.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." John 3:5-8

BenjaminRandall said:
Now, I know you Calvinists believe in the sovereignty of God, but whenever you tell me that a spiritually dead, unregenerate person cannot believe, my reply is that God can indeed enable such a person to believe.

By making him alive.

BenjaminRandall said:
And if you disagree with me, if you still insist that God can't do such a thing, it seems as if you have a low view of the sovereignty of God!

You see why such a high view of God's sovereignty is required of us? We don't think God makes everyone into believing zombies, people who believe spiritually but are dead spiritually.

We think He does more. He makes us alive, spiritually.

But hey, God's the One saying without New Birth, nobody's getting to something as spiritual as eternal life.

The sole question remaining is whether faith is a spiritual action. Because if it is -- and I believe on the basis of 1 John 5:1 that it is -- then the answer is Calvin, and not Arminius or Wesley.

BenjaminRandall · Oct 20, 2007

Thanks for that heyMikey.

Alright, this post seems to reinforce the notion that the only way that God can possibly enable a person to believe is for him to regenerate him.

My contention is that God can enable an unregenerate person to believe so that he may have life.

In this light, I still get the impression from this post that Calvinists are saying that God cannot enable an unregenerate person to believe. The post reinforces the notion that Calvinists are weak on the doctrine of Sovereignty.

Is there anyone who is willing to say that God is capable of enabling an unregenerate person to believe?

BenjaminRandall · Oct 20, 2007

As Calvinists debate Arminians, they repeatedly appeal to John 3 as if they think Arminians don't believe in being born again! What a hoot! I'm not sure I've ever been in an Arminian church service without some reference to being born again!

The difference here is that somehow or another, Calvinists read into the statements of John 3 that you have to be born again in order to believe.

Calvinists want John 3 to read, "Nicodemus, you must be born again in order to believe." Well, of course, John wasn't a Calvinist, and he didn't write any such thing. Jesus simply said, You must be born again.

But then, it is explained that if only you believe, you will have eternal life.

Nicodemus definitely needed to be born again, no doubt about it. But the solution to his predicament was for him to believe in God's Son who was given by the God who loved the world, for whoever believes in the Son will have life!

John 3 works not in favor of Calvinists, but in favor of the Arminian position that you have to believe in order to have life.

GrinningDwarf · Oct 20, 2007

BenjaminRandall said:
Thanks for that heyMikey.

Alright, this post seems to reinforce the notion that the only way that God can possibly enable a person to believe is for him to regenerate him.

My contention is that God can enable an unregenerate person to believe so that he may have life.

In this light, I still get the impression from this post that Calvinists are saying that God cannot enable an unregenerate person to believe. The post reinforces the notion that Calvinists are weak on the doctrine of Sovereignty.

Is there anyone who is willing to say that God is capable of enabling an unregenerate person to believe?

Oh, fer cryin' out loud.

God causes an unregenerate person to believe by regenrerating him!!

You are the only person I've ever heard say Calvinists are weak on God's sovereignty. "God has ordained everything" is a weak position on sovereignty?! I think it's because you're making up your own definitions.

GrinningDwarf · Oct 20, 2007

And you still havn't responded to the scripture declaring what an unregenerate person is capable of doing. Are you surrendering the field, sir?

BenjaminRandall · Oct 20, 2007

I'm going to abandon this thread, since most of the posts have gone off the topic of whether Calvinists can be assured that Jesus died for them. (I myself got off topic too often.)

Since much of this discussion has dealt with whether salvation is by faith, I'll try to respond on the other thread.

GrinningDwarf · Oct 20, 2007

BenjaminRandall said:
I'm going to abandon this thread, since most of the posts have gone off the topic of whether Calvinists can be assured that Jesus died for them. (I myself got off topic too often.)

Since much of this discussion has dealt with whether salvation is by faith, I'll try to respond on the other thread.

Well...the thread title is 'Depravity and Assurance...', and a paragraph from the OP refers to Total Depravity...so shouldn't we establish what Total Depravity actually means? It's entirely on-topic.

And I believe you have surrendered the field, sir!

Have a good day and thank you for playing.

BenjaminRandall · Oct 20, 2007

But let me hasten to add that you folks weren't very encouraging over the issue of how a Calvinist know that Jesus died for them.

But I guess it doesn't matter in the Calvinist scheme of things. Interestingly, I think it was the Synod of Dort (or Belgic Confession?) which claimed that if you didn't have assurance, then you must not be saved!

But, again, it doesn't matter in the Calvinist scheme of things whether you have assurance that Jesus died for you. Accordingly, even if you're not sure that Jesus died for you, he in fact did--so long as you were lucky enough to get elected.

Conversely, as a Calvinist, even if you think Jesus died for you, he actually never did--if you're weren't lucky enough to get elected.

I guess, bottom line, if Calvinism is true, don't bother yourself about whether or not Jesus died for you.

And, if Arminianism is true that Jesus died for all humanity, then, "Choose today whom you will serve," for "whoever believes in him...will have eternal life."

BenjaminRandall · Oct 20, 2007

Yes, Grinning Dwarf, I see your point about defining Total Depravity. But I assume that we all agree that the unregenerate person tends to be deluded and deceived about matters relating to Jesus' death.

My point is simply that the unregenerate person can dupe himself into believing that Jesus died for him--and this is specifically true within the Calvinist system which teaches that Jesus only died for the elect.

Since no one seems interested in answering the question as to how a Calvinist knows that Jesus died for him, one might construe this in itself as a tacit surrendering of the field.

Of course, this really doesn't suggest anyone's surrendering, but if someone wants to deal with the specific question of how a Calvinist knows Jesus died for him, then I'll come back and play some more soccer on this field. Otherwise, I'll focus on the other thread.

heymikey80 · Oct 20, 2007

BenjaminRandall said:
Yes, Grinning Dwarf, I see your point about defining Total Depravity. But I assume that we all agree that the unregenerate person tends to be deluded and deceived about matters relating to Jesus' death.

My point is simply that the unregenerate person can dupe himself into believing that Jesus died for him--and this is specifically true within the Calvinist system which teaches that Jesus only died for the elect.

Since no one seems interested in answering the question as to how a Calvinist knows that Jesus died for him, one might construe this in itself as a tacit surrendering of the field.

Of course, this really doesn't suggest anyone's surrendering, but if someone wants to deal with the specific question of how a Calvinist knows Jesus died for him, then I'll come back and play some more soccer on this field. Otherwise, I'll focus on the other thread.

I assume you're not a universalist?

So what good does dying for sins do? It doesn't appear to save you, because you're not a universalist. You haven't established some kind of offer or peace with God, because the moment you do, you have to admit that Calvinists and arminians both hold to this offer. That's what John 3:16 says.

Your question is actually answered there. And since it's the most commonly known verse of the Bible, and since you know it's in every Calvinist's Bible, and since you know both Calvinists and arminians hold to it -- why would you ask about such an apparent point?

People aren't saved in other systems by Jesus' dying for them. They're saved by their faith in Jesus Christ. So there's no assurance in the fact that Jesus died for them.

People are saved in the Calvinist's view by Jesus' dying for them. It's accomplished there. They receive application of that salvation through their faith in Jesus Christ. So there's assurance among Calvinists -- because everyone Jesus died for comes to faith and is saved.

But ... you knew this, taking all those classes from Calvinists.

The knowledge that "Jesus died for me" is clear to me because I have relied in Him. Frankly, how couldn't I rely in One I knew had saved me, 2000 years ago? I'm promised my God is trustworthy even if I'm untrustworthy. That's a boundless assurance I can't defy. Nothing separates me from Him.

The knowledge that "Jesus died for me" is apparent to an arminian because of the idea that He died for everyone. But that didn't save anyone -- it also took the arminian's faith.

I say just by dying He saved me. Practically speaking He works out my faith. The arminian must conclude that Jesus' dying didn't save him -- or anyone. He simply made salvation possible for those who ante up their faith in Him.

But what if they lose their faith in Him? Often they think they've lost their salvation. That's not very much assurance. When it's in me, and when I can't control my will to hang onto Jesus, then I'm lost. I can do without that assurance -- in its entirety.

heymikey80 · Oct 20, 2007

BenjaminRandall said:
Thanks for that heyMikey.

Alright, this post seems to reinforce the notion that the only way that God can possibly enable a person to believe is for him to regenerate him.

My contention is that God can enable an unregenerate person to believe so that he may have life.

In this light, I still get the impression from this post that Calvinists are saying that God cannot enable an unregenerate person to believe. The post reinforces the notion that Calvinists are weak on the doctrine of Sovereignty.

Is there anyone who is willing to say that God is capable of enabling an unregenerate person to believe?

So you're asking if someone who's dead can do something that we would attribute as living? No.

The problem isn't with God's power. The problem is with linguistics. In order for a word to mean something for truth, it must have attributes that are ontologically connected with one another.

To say "Dead man walking" is an incoherent expression. The walking man is alive. We "get" what it means, not that the dead are walking, but that someone who is about to be made dead is walking his last steps. But semantically, the phrase is meaningless. Dead men don't walk.

The savingly believing man is alive spiritually. By definition. But that's obvious. Which arminian would you bring to say that a believer isn't alive spiritually?

A New Dawn · Oct 20, 2007

GrinningDwarf said:
Oh, fer cryin' out loud.

God causes an unregenerate person to believe by regenrerating him!!

You are the only person I've ever heard say Calvinists are weak on God's sovereignty. "God has ordained everything" is a weak position on sovereignty?! I think it's because you're making up your own definitions.

I was trying to figure out how Calvinists, who are the strongest believers in God's sovereignty, could somehow be called weaker in that area than others, and had to conclude that he was creating his own definitions of, not just sovereignty, but of what Calvinists believe, too.

A New Dawn · Oct 20, 2007

BenjaminRandall said:
I can't tell you how many times Calvinist have told me that it is impossible for a dead, totally depraved, unregenerate person to believe. Well over a hundred times. Need an example? Harold Camping. Or the citation of the Lazarus story.

In contrast, I'm suggesting that God can enable a spiritually dead, totally depraved unregenerate person to believe--and thereby receive the new life in Christ.

Now, I know you Calvinists believe in the sovereignty of God, but whenever you tell me that a spiritually dead, unregenerate person cannot believe, my reply is that God can indeed enable such a person to believe.

AND THAT IS WHAT REGENERATION IS! Sheesh.

What do you think regeneration is?

BenjaminRandall said:
But let me hasten to add that you folks weren't very encouraging over the issue of how a Calvinist know that Jesus died for them.

But I guess it doesn't matter in the Calvinist scheme of things. Interestingly, I think it was the Synod of Dort (or Belgic Confession?) which claimed that if you didn't have assurance, then you must not be saved!

But, again, it doesn't matter in the Calvinist scheme of things whether you have assurance that Jesus died for you. Accordingly, even if you're not sure that Jesus died for you, he in fact did--so long as you were lucky enough to get elected.

Why should we discuss this with you? You have come here making assertions that we believe something completely foreign to Calvinism because you insist you were taught that in some class you took. Even after you have been corrected numerous times in just these two threads you have started, you still continue to assert things that just aren't true.

We have asked you for support of these fallacious assertions, and the best you can come up with is "I can't tell you how many times Calvinist have told me that it is impossible for a dead, totally depraved, unregenerate person to believe." That is not support. How about you go get some information (off the web, even (that would be fairly easy)) to support these statements before creating any more fallacious statements about a soteriological system that you seem to know nothing about.

Conversely, as a Calvinist, even if you think Jesus died for you, he actually never did--if you're weren't lucky enough to get elected.

I guess, bottom line, if Calvinism is true, don't bother yourself about whether or not Jesus died for you.

And, if Arminianism is true that Jesus died for all humanity, then, "Choose today whom you will serve," for "whoever believes in him...will have eternal life."

Lots more red herringy unsupported assertions.

BenjaminRandall said:
I'm going to abandon this thread, since most of the posts have gone off the topic of whether Calvinists can be assured that Jesus died for them. (I myself got off topic too often.)

Since much of this discussion has dealt with whether salvation is by faith, I'll try to respond on the other thread.

Much of this discussion has been you making unsupported fallacious claims about Calvinism, which you have been asked, repeatedly to support, and haven't once done. If it is off-topic it is because we are trying to clarify the record for you so we can actually get to the topic of the thread.

bradfordl · Oct 20, 2007

I was trying to figure out how Calvinists, who are the strongest believers in God's sovereignty, could somehow be called weaker in that area than others, and had to conclude that he was creating his own definitions of, not just sovereignty, but of what Calvinists believe, too.

It's just baiting, sister. He knows that it is something that will get a calvinist's hackles up, so he likes to post it. Why let the fact that it is untrue spoil his fun?

BenjaminRandall · Oct 20, 2007

Just catching up on some of the responses here.

HeyMikey makes provides a great answer to the question, "How does a Calvinist know that Jesus died for him?"

His answer is,

The knowledge that "Jesus died for me" is clear to me because I have relied in Him"

So, there you have it folks. Assurance that Jesus died for you is all wrapped up in your thinking that you have relied in him! --Straight from the mouth of a good Calvinist, I presume.

Of course, since we all suffer from depravity, maybe we deceive ourselves into thinking that we have faith.

I would never rest assured in something so important as to whether Jesus died for me on the basis of my own faith.

Rather, I get my assurance that Jesus died for me from the Bible which teaches that Jesus gave himself as a ransome for all men.

BenjaminRandall · Oct 20, 2007

Oh, but I appreciate heyMikey's take on how he is assured that Jesus died for him.

I can appreciate some of the frustration A New Dawn seems to be experiencing here, in that maybe I need to focus on some of the points New Dawn has raised. Again, I'll get to it as soon as I can. I feel like I'm playing soccer by myself against another team with five other members who have five different balls!

I did, however, want to take time out to reflect on heyMikey's response because, of all the recent posts, he does make an effort to explain how a Calvinist knows that Jesus died for him.

Thanks.

heymikey80 · Oct 20, 2007

BenjaminRandall said:
Just catching up on some of the responses here.

HeyMikey makes provides a great answer to the question, "How does a Calvinist know that Jesus died for him?"

His answer is,

So, there you have it folks. Assurance that Jesus died for you is all wrapped up in your thinking that you have relied in him! --Straight from the mouth of a good Calvinist, I presume.

Of course, since we all suffer from depravity, maybe we deceive ourselves into thinking that we have faith.

I would never rest assured in something so important as to whether Jesus died for me on the basis of my own faith.

Rather, I get my assurance that Jesus died for me from the Bible which teaches that Jesus gave himself as a ransome for all men.

So there you have it folks. To BR assurance that Jesus died for you is all wrapped up in your thinking that the Bible says Jesus gave himself as a ransom for all men.

But wait ... that doesn't save all men.

The only assurance that gives is that the Judgment is on its way.

And it's all based on you thinking Jesus died for everybody ... but saved no one thereby.

Which, by the way, you interpolated into what I said. My assurance is confirmed through the existence of my faith. But my assurance is outside that faith. It's what God will do, even though I believe incompletely and imperfectly. And I may not even be aware of His assurance. But I have it.

You on the other hand, you need to muster up some faith ... and keep it.

There you have it, BR. You don't have any more assurance than your imperfect faith. I have assurance that overwhelms my imperfect faith.

mlqurgw · Oct 20, 2007

BenjaminRandall said:
Yes, Grinning Dwarf, I see your point about defining Total Depravity. But I assume that we all agree that the unregenerate person tends to be deluded and deceived about matters relating to Jesus' death.

My point is simply that the unregenerate person can dupe himself into believing that Jesus died for him--and this is specifically true within the Calvinist system which teaches that Jesus only died for the elect.

Since no one seems interested in answering the question as to how a Calvinist knows that Jesus died for him, one might construe this in itself as a tacit surrendering of the field.

Of course, this really doesn't suggest anyone's surrendering, but if someone wants to deal with the specific question of how a Calvinist knows Jesus died for him, then I'll come back and play some more soccer on this field. Otherwise, I'll focus on the other thread.

Paul gives clear, umistakable reasons that a person can know they are saved and elected in 1Thess. 1:4-10:
1Th 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
1Th 1:6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:
1Th 1:7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.
1Th 1:8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.
1Th 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Depravity and Assurance of Salvation

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